Wham Bam I Am! Jam
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Someone that you have deprived of everything is no longer in your power. [Mo0:0]
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Post by Wham Bam I Am! Jam on Sept 7, 2011 11:18:08 GMT -8
*Revives thread.*
OK, I'm reading the TVTropes page for this series and something struck me about what really bothers me about this series.
Rephaim.
As people from the old boards may remember, I adore Rephaim. He is the only character I would keep reading for. I love him.
I've read up to Burned, I think it was, and I'm getting pissed at the whole "Love Redeems" thing that's going on. It's been stated in the series, Raven Mockers are not good. Yeah, Rephaim owed a "life debt" to Stevie Rae; I get that, I accept that. What I don't want is a rescue romance. What I don't want is for Rephaim to do what all the other characters seem to have done; that is, turn his back on his family. Kalona may be a fucking dick but he's still Rephaim's father. I can't really remember the books too well but I'd assume that Kalona would have taken his offspring under his wing and taken care of them.
I am actually tempted to write a fic for this series, focussing entirely on Rephaim. I might be able to save his character.
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Post by hildafan on Sept 7, 2011 12:37:50 GMT -8
^ It's been awhile since I read Awakened but he's working for both his father and Steve Rae now if I remember correctly. Mind you his father's an asshole so I wouldn't have any problems if he abandoned him.
Oh, and not all the characters turned there backs on their families, that was only Zoey, Aphrodite, and Neferet. And the former two came from emotionally abusive families so they had legit reasons too. Plus Zoey tried to fix things with her mother if I'm remembering correctly.
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Wham Bam I Am! Jam
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Post by Wham Bam I Am! Jam on Sept 7, 2011 12:57:44 GMT -8
^ It's been awhile since I read Awakened but he's working for both his father and Steve Rae now if I remember correctly. Mind you his father's an asshole so I wouldn't have any problems if he abandoned him.
Oh, and not all the characters turned there backs on their families, that was only Zoey, Aphrodite, and Neferet. And the former two came from emotionally abusive families so they had legit reasons too. Plus Zoey tried to fix things with her mother if I'm remembering correctly. I'd rather he stuck with Kalona but still...objected to what Kalona's planning. I think that would be more IC for him rather than pulling a Heel Face Turn.
They're the only ones mentioned. The Twins' families are never mentioned, not even by them, neither are the families' of the Red Fledglings. Most of the vampyres have this idea that humans are beneath them so I'm going to assume that the majority just pulled a Bella. It's not like most of them are developed anyway.
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Post by Lord Lovrina on Sept 7, 2011 13:43:25 GMT -8
HoN shouldn't be made into a movie series. And I'm not just saying that because I hate the books with all my heart. Everything about HoN feels like it's meant to be a tv series. The way things happen so slowly, the constant getting together and breaking up of characters, the "jokes" and refrences. Not to mention how hard it is to adapt it into a movie. Most books-to-movies do one film per book. But you'd only get an hour max out of the first book, meaning you'd also have to do the second. Which would make it seem like a really disjointed story. I wouldn't mind this turning into a tv show or movie. I love the concept, but I just hate the main characters' personalities and how there's too much filler. I think the only way this could become a series of pretty good movies/tv series is if: 1. It's only loosely based on the books and original main characters. 2. Cuts out most of the filler. 3. There's a movie/tv series for each 2-4 books. I'm in complete agreement. HoN is better suited for a tv show, and I would watch it for the snarking. I liked the concept of the books, but the characters ruined it for me. If it was made into a tv show, the adaptation could completely change it from the original source, just like how The 9 Lives of Chloe King and Vampire Diaries turned out almost completely different from the original books. Some of the filler would most likely be taken out.
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Wham Bam I Am! Jam
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Post by Wham Bam I Am! Jam on Sept 10, 2011 7:47:31 GMT -8
I actually have another niggle about the Raven Mockers. How do they even work? First off, how did a "union" between a human woman and a fallen angel result in something that, I think, would look like this: Second, how do they fly? If they're part human, part bird, what are their bones like? Are they hollow, like a bird's? If they are, how do those bones support a human frame? And if they're solid, like a human's, how do Raven Mocker's fly? Third, how do they eat? What do they eat? This might have been addressed in one of the books. If they eat "human food" how do they chew? They have beaks, for Heaven's sake! Not even hooked beaks, like predator birds, but a rather straight beak of a carrion bird. And if they ate a bird's diet, wouldn't they have to eat an awful lot since they're part human? Fourth, how do they talk? Doesn't talking require human lips in order to form words? Fifth, why am I putting more thought into this world's myths than the actual authors?
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Post by watersheerie on Sept 10, 2011 19:57:15 GMT -8
I actually have another niggle about the Raven Mockers. How do they even work? First off, how did a "union" between a human woman and a fallen angel result in something that, I think, would look like this: Second, how do they fly? If they're part human, part bird, what are their bones like? Are they hollow, like a bird's? If they are, how do those bones support a human frame? And if they're solid, like a human's, how do Raven Mocker's fly? Third, how do they eat? What do they eat? This might have been addressed in one of the books. If they eat "human food" how do they chew? They have beaks, for Heaven's sake! Not even hooked beaks, like predator birds, but a rather straight beak of a carrion bird. And if they ate a bird's diet, wouldn't they have to eat an awful lot since they're part human? Fourth, how do they talk? Doesn't talking require human lips in order to form words? Fifth, why am I putting more thought into this world's myths than the actual authors? Hate to defend these awful books, but for one thing, I think that the Raven Mockers are a part of Native American lore (not sure which tribe...probably Cherokee since that's what Zoho is). I'm not sure how much about the Raven Mockers myth is original and how much is taken from the Native American stories. Anywho, as bad as these books are, they really don't try to be scientific like Meyer did. It's magic and fantasy. I don't recall the Casts trying to use science to explain any aspect of the Raven Mockers. They are just like any other fantasy creature that defies science. I've read a lot of Native American folklore stories that feature people that have animal heads, body parts. Charles de Lint uses a lot of Native American myth and has featured people that have bird heads, dog heads, deer heads, etc. So I'm really not offended by the appearance of the Raven Mockers, nor the scientific improbability of such creatures. Sometimes the "it's magic/fantasy" excuse works, and in this case it does.
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Wham Bam I Am! Jam
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Post by Wham Bam I Am! Jam on Sept 11, 2011 0:33:15 GMT -8
I actually have another niggle about the Raven Mockers. How do they even work? First off, how did a "union" between a human woman and a fallen angel result in something that, I think, would look like this: Second, how do they fly? If they're part human, part bird, what are their bones like? Are they hollow, like a bird's? If they are, how do those bones support a human frame? And if they're solid, like a human's, how do Raven Mocker's fly? Third, how do they eat? What do they eat? This might have been addressed in one of the books. If they eat "human food" how do they chew? They have beaks, for Heaven's sake! Not even hooked beaks, like predator birds, but a rather straight beak of a carrion bird. And if they ate a bird's diet, wouldn't they have to eat an awful lot since they're part human? Fourth, how do they talk? Doesn't talking require human lips in order to form words? Fifth, why am I putting more thought into this world's myths than the actual authors? Hate to defend these awful books, but for one thing, I think that the Raven Mockers are a part of Native American lore (not sure which tribe...probably Cherokee since that's what Zoho is). I'm not sure how much about the Raven Mockers myth is original and how much is taken from the Native American stories. Anywho, as bad as these books are, they really don't try to be scientific like Meyer did. It's magic and fantasy. I don't recall the Casts trying to use science to explain any aspect of the Raven Mockers. They are just like any other fantasy creature that defies science. I've read a lot of Native American folklore stories that feature people that have animal heads, body parts. Charles de Lint uses a lot of Native American myth and has featured people that have bird heads, dog heads, deer heads, etc. So I'm really not offended by the appearance of the Raven Mockers, nor the scientific improbability of such creatures. Sometimes the "it's magic/fantasy" excuse works, and in this case it does. But the mythical Raven Mockers aren't like the ones in the books. To quote Wiki: So, what the Casts did was basically create their own monster and branded it a Raven Mocker. The "magic" excuse doesn't really hold up for me, though. I'll still question how they work. I even question how centaurs work, especially in regards to digestion and reprocuction, even if they were just inspired by humans on horseback. Magic needs to be explained sometimes; it shouldn't just be "Magic, damn you!" If there are questions, they need to be explained with something other than magic. Even mythical creatures have biology, you know.
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Post by watersheerie on Sept 12, 2011 20:32:52 GMT -8
^ ^
Sometimes there is a need for an explanation that is more comprehensive then 'magic bitches.' I agree. However, I think with the biology of mythical creatures, we tend to let writers slide. For instance: the creatures of Narnia. How do the animals talk? What about Mr. Tummus, or any other composite creature, how does their biology work? The giant eagles of LOTR, there is a reason birds do not get that big and it is because even with hollow bones an animal that massive is not going to fly. Much less, be able to carry people on it's back. What about the gryphons of Mercedes Lackey's universe? Again, a composite creature that flies in the face of biology, where are the extra set of shoulder blades going to fit? Charles de Lint had mythical people, Native American myths, that consisted of human bodies with animal heads, your arguments concerning the Raven Mockers could equally be applied to his people. In Widdershins he also featured a giant salmon that swam through the air, another biology fail. Shapeshifting in general is a gray area.
The thing is; yes at times we can question the science and logic of fantasy, but mostly this occurs when the writer herself/himself brings science into the question. But fantasy usually has it's own internal logic that it's supposed to run on. There will always be questions if you look. However when reading a story like the Narnia series, are you supposed to be questioning the biology of fauns and centaurs? Or is the story still readable and good without ever answering such questions?
But as to the Raven Mockers...ravens in real life are actually capable of speech, like parrots. Ravens are actually pretty badass birds, they're highly intelligent and are among the few animals that will 'name' their young.
I probably shouldn't be surprised that the Casts ignored everything about the original Raven Mocker myth, much as Meyer did, so I'm withdrawing my previous 'defense' on that area. Given how fond the Casts are of the 'Magical Indian' stereotype, the rape of the Raven Mockers myth is just standard for them.
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Wham Bam I Am! Jam
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Post by Wham Bam I Am! Jam on Sept 13, 2011 7:30:05 GMT -8
I suppose that with Narnia and LOTR, I can let it slide because they're not based in the real world. I hardly expect them to conform to...basic reality, I guess.
I've never read Charles de Lint or Mercedes Lackey but, if they have creatures like you say they do, those would probably bug the fuck out of me as well.
As a fledgling writer, stuff like this is one of my peeves. I've concluded that the centaurs in my universe have sex and give birth like horses do. But then I thought, "How do they suckle their young? Like a human or like a horse?" A similar sort of thing happened with my two hybrid characters; their parents are two different species, so I should give them the same limitations as hybrids in real life, right? Hence why hybrids in my universe are sterile. If there's something in my story that doesn't make sense to me, I agonise over it for hours trying to solve my problem.
Some authors, when asked these questions, just say, "Don't think about it." Usually, I take that sort of thing to mean that the author hasn't thought of it when, in fact, the author should be thinking about it.
Maybe I'm just a strange and annoying creature but I can ignore those while reading the story but when I'm finished, I think, "Well, how the fuck do they work?" Which is what happened in this case. Hence my wondering.
I know that ravens are very intelligent birds. But whether they can speak or not, it's probably not "fluent" like how the Raven Mockers speak. And it's just one of those things that bug me. Like when I watch a live-action kids movie that has talking animals and I'm like, "Dude, seriously? I know it's a kids movie and i should let it lie but...that's just annoying!"
Then again, I find most talking animals annoying anyway.
I will end this on a note to the Casts; if you want to take something from a mythology, make it fucking recognisable!
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Post by Is A Bell A Swan? on Sept 13, 2011 11:15:06 GMT -8
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Wham Bam I Am! Jam
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Post by Wham Bam I Am! Jam on Sept 13, 2011 11:25:53 GMT -8
What. OK, I was just on Amazon and read the product description for the book. It's pimping Zoho out as "AMAZING!" again. But there's worse. Apparently, Rephaim has been made human.
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Nebbles is quite whimsical
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Post by Nebbles is quite whimsical on Sept 13, 2011 18:53:07 GMT -8
e______________e Rephriam was made human so Stevie Rae could have her "troo wuv", am I right?
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Post by watersheerie on Sept 13, 2011 21:23:44 GMT -8
Maybe I'm just a strange and annoying creature but I can ignore those while reading the story but when I'm finished, I think, "Well, how the fuck do they work?" Which is what happened in this case. Hence my wondering. I think that maybe different people focus on different things when it comes to stories/movies. So maybe for you these are things that capture your attention more-so then other folks. Currently I'm involved in a heated debate on a Trek forum over the use of lens flare in the new Star Trek movie. Many people were bugged by it, including me, but a lot simply didn't notice it. People tend to notice different things. The thing is, we tend to let biology slide with other writers, better writers and better books. If HoN was a better books series, would the Raven Mockers still bother you so much? I'm just saying, fantasy is filled with biological fails, pretty much every fantasy creature out there is impossible due to science. But we still accept them...most of them anyway. I know that ravens are very intelligent birds. But whether they can speak or not, it's probably not "fluent" like how the Raven Mockers speak. And it's just one of those things that bug me. Like when I watch a live-action kids movie that has talking animals and I'm like, "Dude, seriously? I know it's a kids movie and i should let it lie but...that's just annoying!" Then again, I find most talking animals annoying anyway. Ravens are capable of speaking at the same level of parrots. I think that the reason parrots and ravens are able to speak without lips is due to their tongues and a highly complex use of perfect pitch. The Raven Mockers, (I think...I really don't know much about them), are supposed to be smarter then the average raven. So they would be more fluent, they already have the tools, even without lips. I'm just saying that it's entirely and scientifically possible for the Raven Mockers to be able to speak. Now as to how they sound...I'm imagining all the Raven Mockers talking with the voices of parrots. Scratchy and slightly cartoony voices...not very menacing.
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Wham Bam I Am! Jam
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Post by Wham Bam I Am! Jam on Sept 13, 2011 22:40:20 GMT -8
e______________e Rephriam was made human so Stevie Rae could have her "troo wuv", am I right? Yes. Even if the Casts try to show Nyx as "the bestest deity EVARR!" I hate her forever for this. *melodramatic.*
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Post by watersheerie on Sept 13, 2011 22:59:14 GMT -8
^ ^
Of course Nyx is the best god/goddess ever, because she is the goddess of the ever-so-superior vampyres. The Casts are just like Meyer, their vampyres are so awesome. Beautiful, tolerant, loving, magical, powerful, awesome. Why look at Zoho's friends, her little group is carefully tailored to show how tolerant and wonderful and pc the vampyres are. There's a black girl (exactly one...you can only have one token black per a group) who's best friends with a white girl (OMG So Original!). And a gay guy, you know you're tolerant and enlightened when you have a gay friend. And they don't smoke pot or drink or curse very much, it's like 7th Heaven was remade into a vampire series.
Casts and Meyer both write by the motto "Vampires Rule Humans Drool."
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Wham Bam I Am! Jam
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Post by Wham Bam I Am! Jam on Sept 14, 2011 6:44:52 GMT -8
^ ^ Of course Nyx is the best god/goddess ever, because she is the goddess of the ever-so-superior vampyres. The Casts are just like Meyer, their vampyres are so awesome. Beautiful, tolerant, loving, magical, powerful, awesome. Why look at Zoho's friends, her little group is carefully tailored to show how tolerant and wonderful and pc the vampyres are. There's a black girl (exactly one...you can only have one token black per a group) who's best friends with a white girl (OMG So Original!). And a gay guy, you know you're tolerant and enlightened when you have a gay friend. And they don't smoke pot or drink or curse very much, it's like 7th Heaven was remade into a vampire series. As has been discussed, though, they have failed epically on that. "LOOK, WE HAVE A GAY CHARACTER AND A BLACK CHARACTER! THEY'RE JUST SHALLOW STEREOTYPES BUT, FUCK IT, WE'RE ACCEPTING!" I don't pay attention much to SMeyer's interviews and haven't read the Twilight books in ages but, as far as I know, she's never tried to come off as "cool" or "accepting." She writes cliched shit but it's hardly as insulting to the audience's intelligence as this is.
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Post by watersheerie on Sept 14, 2011 21:56:29 GMT -8
^ ^
Meyer would never feature a gay guy in her story, for obvious reasons. And her depictions of minorities have been just as offensive as the Casts.
But I think you're right in that the Casts seem very focused on hooking the 'teen' crowd. They stuff their books with all these pop-culture references and generic teen stuff. OMG, movies stars,c current hot music hits and myspace!
Meyer's books are more about the romance, actually Meyer really just writes for herself, it doesn't really make her better then the Casts as it has given her a very selfish and narrow viewpoint on her books and the writing process in general. Plus her books are just as shitty, just shitty in different ways.
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Wham Bam I Am! Jam
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Post by Wham Bam I Am! Jam on Sept 14, 2011 22:50:57 GMT -8
I always thought that SMeyer's would have been offensive simply because she didn't do the research whereas P.C. Cast is a teacher (I think) and so shouldn't really need to research teenage behaviour. The fact that she writes teenagers as she does is insulting because a) they're the target audience and b) she's supposed to work with teens. Not to mention, some of the kids she works with could be gay and of a minority and she still pushes the stereotypes on her characters. If I were one of her students, I would be offended by the fact that she thinks this is a plausible way to write teens; wouldn't she have observed the class?
I won't deny that SMeyer's books are shitty but the fact that she writes for herself can kind of excuse the fact that Bella doesn't think like a normal teenager; SMeyer based Bella on herself, therefore Bella doesn't come off as a normal teen. However, there is a discussion on the whole "writing for herself" in another thread that I am not going to go into.
Ugh, rambling.
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Post by watersheerie on Oct 4, 2011 22:43:07 GMT -8
I always thought that SMeyer's would have been offensive simply because she didn't do the research whereas P.C. Cast is a teacher (I think) and so shouldn't really need to research teenage behaviour. The fact that she writes teenagers as she does is insulting because a) they're the target audience and b) she's supposed to work with teens. Not to mention, some of the kids she works with could be gay and of a minority and she still pushes the stereotypes on her characters. If I were one of her students, I would be offended by the fact that she thinks this is a plausible way to write teens; wouldn't she have observed the class? It's entirely possible that she is one of those clueless teachers that have no idea how to interact and relate toward teens. I've had teachers before that had no idea how to talk to teens, much less how to teach. I mean, we already know that Cast is a shitty writer, is it that much of a stretch to imagine that she might be an equally shitty teacher? And for the minorities...it's again, possible that Cast simply has had little to none contact with minorities. She might live in a mostly white area and have mostly, if not all, white kids in her class. It happens. To be honest the idea that Cast lives in a fairly well-off, sheltered white suburban area would explain some of the problems in the books. She writes stereotypes because that is all she knows. I'm not trying to excuse her behavior and writing, because it's still awful and offensive. I'm just saying that there might be some sort of explanation for why a teacher is writing such awful books.
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EarthDragon88
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Post by EarthDragon88 on Oct 10, 2011 7:02:02 GMT -8
^I agree, my mother is a teacher and she has a tendency to treat everyone like a student. For example, our builders are Polish and sometimes get words wrong, and she corrects them, it makes the plasterer we have laugh. Similarly, I wouldn't rate her highly in how she handles teenagers, neither her own or her students (I'd elaborate, but that's a tangent).
On the point on minorities, it is a possibility. From what I remember of school, the majority of my class was white. The only exception I remember was in France where literally half my class was black and there was one Asian boy, and then the remainder was white. Also, the only non-white teacher I remember was my primary school music teacher, who was Jamaican.
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Wham Bam I Am! Jam
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Post by Wham Bam I Am! Jam on Oct 10, 2011 8:00:25 GMT -8
Maybe it's just me; I grew up in Australia and we had a pretty high percentage of Asians in my high school. I kinda got used how they behaved and expect most minorites in books to act like, you know, people rather than stereotypes. The majority of my school was white but they came from a lot of different backgrounds.
Still, is it that hard to create a minority character without resorting to stereotypes? I know all races have thier own cultures, if you will, but I think giving a black character character is more important that getting black culture spot on. I know i prefer to read about white British people with character rather than read about white British people who are walking steretypes.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2011 13:08:45 GMT -8
The whole book really irritated me a lot. Mostly for three things:
1. Zoe. I hate how she is always so negative and how the authors tried to make her like just an ordinary girl, but failed so much.
2) I hate how Kristin and P.C. Cast write vampires like "vampyres"; annoyed the hell out of me for the first parts of the book. When I managed to get over that, and got to the point where she comes to her first classes at school, I had another irritation point: how all the famous people in history had been vampires and that's why they were so good. Also, there was this one famous guy (can't remember his name) who haven't been a vampire and the teacher said something like "unfortunately he wasn't a vampire, though."
3. The stereotypes. Of course everyone who listens to the music Zoe doesn't listen to got to be emo's and ALL emo's cut themselves... And all blonde girls who Zoe is jealous of are braindead bimbos who will end up like a girl on "16 and pregnant". Of course!
I only read the first book; kept discussing with myself today whether I should get the 2nd book from the library today or not, but decided not to. Didn't want to waste my time that much.
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Post by circledaybreak on Oct 25, 2011 11:13:37 GMT -8
The whole argument of whether Meyer or Cast is worse feels to me like I may never be fully resolved; On one hand we have Meyer, who is a crappy writer because she's a lazy, sheltered snob who writes out her own fantasies based on how awesome she is, and then there's Cast, who writes crappily because she wants to be super relevant to idiot teens, and also to feed her fantasies of being super specially accepting, powerful and sexually liberated or whatever. They're just two sides of the same coin; crappy writing. Ironically both Meyer and Cast fit perfectly into the high school cliche's of the introverted passive aggressive who thinks she's better than everyone else, and the sycophantic preppie girl who tries so hard to be deep it becomes a gruesome parody of depth. Sad.
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PRINCESS TROLLESTIA
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Post by PRINCESS TROLLESTIA on Nov 2, 2011 20:19:43 GMT -8
Having read at least part of HoN, I can say with 100% conviction that Cast is the worst of the two.
Bella was a whiner and stupid, but she was tolerable for the most part. Cast managed to write a protagonist so insufferable that I have considered setting my Kindle on fire just to rid my library of its wicked taint.
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Wham Bam I Am! Jam
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Post by Wham Bam I Am! Jam on Nov 3, 2011 0:05:15 GMT -8
I'd say that Cast is worse because, while Meyer's protagonist is bad because Meyer is a hack and didn't do research, Cast actually got her daughter to help with the way teenagers speak and behave.
When you have someone else helping you write dialogue you don't have experience with and it's still bad, you should just quit.
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Post by watersheerie on Nov 3, 2011 16:36:48 GMT -8
I might consider the Casts to be worse simply because they have more books. And also, HoN are just among many Twilight-copycats that are floating around these days. So HoN is basically shit that was copied from shit.
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Nebbles is quite whimsical
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Post by Nebbles is quite whimsical on Nov 3, 2011 17:55:36 GMT -8
Casts are WAY WAY WAYYYYYY worse. Basically because as a teacher, the mother should be ashamed of how horrid the stereotypes are! She should know better!
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Post by Too Funk to Druck{Truthiness} on Nov 12, 2011 16:30:08 GMT -8
As an English teacher, she should be ashamed of the writing in general.
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Nebbles is quite whimsical
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Post by Nebbles is quite whimsical on Nov 12, 2011 16:33:13 GMT -8
I'm ashamed she's an English teacher. >_>
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