limelightqueen
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You know how to whistle, don't you?[Mo0:0]
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Post by limelightqueen on Jan 6, 2011 9:51:15 GMT -8
limelightqueen: You'd think these idiots would have learnt in New Moon something about whether it's smart to throw huge parties for Bella. Alice and Wardo insisted she should have a birthday party she didn't want to have and what happened? Jasper tried to nom Bella, she got thrown in a pile of glass and the family (or Edward) decided to leave. But no, that's not enough! Lets make her have more parties she doesn't want to have anyway! Nonetheless, it's all about how Meyer's fantasy - she wants Bella to have parties and presents but masks it with Bella's wangst. If our Heroine truly hated having parties and stuff, why does she let these people do these things to her anyway?
This is exactly what I keep saying. Though I initially feel bad for Bella and do understand not being in the spotlight, people who know and love me DON'T FUCKING DO THINGS I don't want to do. If they don't know, I'm not afraid to give them a bit of info about how I think and feel. With Bella, she turns into this pile of "Woe is Me" and instead of growing the balls to tell them to fuck off, she doesn't want to hurt their feelings ( ) and goes along with it. It's Smeyer who is living the fantasy, but still has to keep Bella "humble" throughout to books.Exactly, I don't mind doing things in public. I was vice president of the debate club in high school (although we did suck...) and loved every minute of it. I love to act and one of my biggest minor grievance about my high school experience (I swear that phrase made sense in my head) was picking cheerleading and yearbook over drama club in twelfth grade (yes, I was that girl, like Reese Witherspoon's character in Election on ritalin). When I made that decision the play hadn't been chosen yet so you can imagine my regret when it was announced as The Importance of Being Earnest- my all time favorite play. It's been a personal dream of mine to play Cecily because she's so awesomely ridiculous. Without me there were only three other seniors in the club. Seniors almost always get the best roles. D was hilarious as Algernon. A was passable as Gwendolen. C played Cecily so badly that even though she was a dear friend of mine I was forced to slip out the back halfway through the first act lest she ruin Oscar Wilde for me forever. She completely misunderstood the tone of the play and instead of playing the character as a wry, satirical commentary on the pampered youth of the day she acted like a character straight out of a Will Ferrell movie. And not even a good Will Farrell movie. Anyway, despite my love of the spotlight (hence my screenname), I am very reluctant to show off my artwork. I've been told that I'm very good and even I will admit they I have a sizable amount of talent but I'm just too self-conscious about it to broadcast it to the world. I think it's because when preforming in public you are playing a role, even in debate club and cheerleading you are taking on a persona. In yearbook I shared responsibility of the finished product with everyone else in the club. But my art is mine and mine alone. I'm fully responsible every line, every smudge, every imperfection all by myself. So any critique of it is a critique of me as a person at my very core. This fear is so great that I've never taken a formal art class, just my joke of an art elective in high school. I'm the same way about my writing but that's because I'm truly not a very refined writer. Nor a dedicated or meticulous one, I've never gotten past the first draft. So, I recently did a drawing that my friends, family and boyfriend wanted me to submit to an art contest at my school. It was actually inspired by the contest's theme but while drawing it I had no intention of submitting it. I just thought it was a cool idea. But even though I was personally rather proud at how it turned out, I just couldn't submit it no matter how much they urged me to. Even the $200 prize money couldn't tempt me. Once I firmly told them this, they accepted it and respected my wishes. Some of them commented that they disagreed with my decision but they still respected it. None of them went behind my back and submitted it without my knowledge. I truly feel that the most important aspect of any relationship is mutual respect, be it familial, platonic or romantic. The sparklepires don't even respect Bella's property let alone her wishes. And that is why the relationships are so intrinsically screwed up.
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Alice (PMD)
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Relax! Take it eeeaaaasssssyyyyyy[Mo0:0]
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Post by Alice (PMD) on Jan 7, 2011 9:30:23 GMT -8
I like Alice. D: Apart from loving to shop and being materlistic (and come on, she had a horrid life before she was turned, so this may just be her desire to have nice things showing, despite her not remembering her past life) , I think she's a great, fun character that could be pretty damn amazing if a good writer wrote her.
Also, her relationship with Jasper is one of my favourites out of the vqarious books I've read. Sooo much better than Bella and Edward!
...Now all we need is an amazing writer to write Alice and Jasper. THey have so much potential!
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Post by Elentari on Jan 8, 2011 7:01:37 GMT -8
I like Alice. D: Apart from loving to shop and being materlistic (and come on, she had a horrid life before she was turned, so this may just be her desire to have nice things showing, despite her not remembering her past life) , I think she's a great, fun character that could be pretty damn amazing if a good writer wrote her. I think it was incrediblly convenient that she would just forget all about her hard past. No dealing with painful stuff in Twilight! With a past like that, she could have been this deep and wise character, but what do we get? A materialistic shopaholic who manipulates and puts the blame on people she claims to love when she can't get what she wants! I don't buy Meyer's explanation on how Alice's materialistic tendencies are just because she tries to make up for her lost human life, but why would she do such thing in the first place? If she can't remember the bad things that happened to her, why would she need or want to make up for them? And even then, the materialistic things are not the only good thing about life. She only has memory of being a meyerpire, a creature with supposedly very different mindset than humans. I can see that kind of a character being highly "spiritual" person who, from human point of view, seems to always act very bizarrely. I don't think they're much better than Bedward. We don't know that much about them, and their relationship stays kinda superficial in my opinion. The whole thing of them suddenly meeting on some diner and then just deciding to stick together doesn't really impress me. We rarely see them interacting with each other in the series. Sure, they have potential, but I couldn't bring myself to care about either of them.
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Post by Lady of Himring on Jan 8, 2011 14:02:23 GMT -8
I think it was incrediblly convenient that she would just forget all about her hard past. No dealing with painful stuff in Twilight! With a past like that, she could have been this deep and wise character, but what do we get? A materialistic shopaholic who manipulates and puts the blame on people she claims to love when she can't get what she wants! I don't buy Meyer's explanation on how Alice's materialistic tendencies are just because she tries to make up for her lost human life, but why would she do such thing in the first place? If she can't remember the bad things that happened to her, why would she need or want to make up for them? And even then, the materialistic things are not the only good thing about life. She only has memory of being a meyerpire, a creature with supposedly very different mindset than humans. I can see that kind of a character being highly "spiritual" person who, from human point of view, seems to always act very bizarrely.
^I found it ridiculous that Rosalie could remember her rape, but Alice couldn't remember her past life.
I usually don't care for materialistic people, their life to live. But what annoys me about Alice is that she uses the "don't you love me?" card on Bella. And Bella's too much of a doormat to do anything, but then again, it's Smeyer's way to have it all without sounding materialistic.
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limelightqueen
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You know how to whistle, don't you?[Mo0:0]
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Post by limelightqueen on Jan 8, 2011 19:28:02 GMT -8
Also, her relationship with Jasper is one of my favourites out of the various books I've read. Sooo much better than Bella and Edward!
...Now all we need is an amazing writer to write Alice and Jasper. They have so much potential!I've said this before and I'll say it again: Twilight has potential only in the way a blank word document has potential. Meyer takes very, very basic ideas and doesn't flesh them out. "A vampire falls in love with a human and must overcome his desire to kill her" that is the plot of Twilight. That plot has potential but Meyer doesn't do anything about that potential. There are no complexities, no subplots, no motivation or backstories just that, and even the last part doesn't really factor in. Meyer's characters have potential because they are blank slates.
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Post by smithkakarot on Jan 10, 2011 19:37:23 GMT -8
Kinda scared that Twilight fangirls who read that webcomic I'm planning might think a character named Alice Dragomir is named after Alice Cullen 'cause she's part vampire (she's actually named after Alice Cooper.)
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limelightqueen
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You know how to whistle, don't you?[Mo0:0]
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Post by limelightqueen on Jan 10, 2011 20:30:52 GMT -8
^Why should you care? Let them think that if they want to and if they ask you set them straight. If you write your character well enough she'll be put far and away about Alice Cullen.
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Post by smithkakarot on Jan 10, 2011 23:10:22 GMT -8
Heh, guess I still got plenty of insecurity in me.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2011 10:56:59 GMT -8
Considering that the matter was briefly brought up, and it hasn't been discussed in any great detail yet, I submit this redirect for the thread: if Alice's materalistic qualities represent, as Stephenie Meyer says, compensation for her lack of human experiences and her desire to, like a young teenager, "live out" those missed experiences on a scale that only an immortal can (or someone in the very top tiers of wealth), does this make her materalism excusable? Does the context matter? If it does matter, is it rendered basically useless because the psychological implications of this kind of approach to life are basically ignored?
And, if you so choose, here's a Devil's Advocate Moment:
Alice agreed to "kidnap" Bella for Edward because she was greatly concerned for her well-being around less mature, potentially dangerous wolves. The vehicle could be considered little more than a bonus. She was simply being a good friend who refuses to let others knowingly walk into danger and used her powers with the intent of keeping another safe. Given that she also attempted to make Bella feel as comfortable as possible and suggested several activities for them to do together (not pushing the matter further after several refusals), does this make Alice's actions excusable? Does it make them worse? Should she have considered Bella's objections, or was she right to act out of a sense of protectiveness when she knew about the emotional difficulties of the wolves and Bella's situation with Jacob? When you genuinely feel that a friend is misinformed and they are walking into danger, do you have the right to try and stop them? Does Alice's seemingly sad, reflective state after the fact suggest a great emotional understanding?
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Post by vampirekites on Jan 14, 2011 11:50:59 GMT -8
That whole thing wasn't really about Bella's "protection" but more about Edward's jealousy of Bella and Jacob's relationship. She wouldn't be in any danger with the Quileutes any more than she would have with the Cullen's. I mean, did he forget just a year prior he would have killed Bella and classroom of kids because of her scent? Or that Jasper nearly tore her apart after a small papercut? THEY are the ones who lose it over blood, not the werewolves.
And yes, they are friends, and Alice would always make sure Bella was comfortable. The fact remains that Bella had to be babysat so she wouldn't go see Jacob.
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Graceful Lament
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Come the war, come the averice. Come the war, come hell.
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Post by Graceful Lament on Mar 11, 2011 13:53:28 GMT -8
Is it just me, or does Alice seem to sometimes use Jasper like a pokemon? Whenever Bella is feeling sad or anxious, she basically says, "Jasper, use empathy beam!" and he cheers up Bella to make Alice happy. Never mind the fact that there's no evidence to support the fact that he even cares about Bella, regardless of what the Jasper/Bella shippers think. It seems more like he merely tolerates Bella because Alice likes her. It almost makes me feel sorry for Jasper.
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Post by Lady of Himring on Mar 12, 2011 16:27:12 GMT -8
^In Midnight Sun, she has a vision of her and Bella being friends:
And suddenly, Jasper belives her. And when Edward's hestitating on leaving, then we get this jewel:
Undeline of mine. Seriously, she's not angry about her death, she's angry about her vision failing.
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Tim Willard
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Got pen, paper, booze, and ink, it's time to write.[Mo0:3]
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Post by Tim Willard on Mar 13, 2011 0:16:15 GMT -8
Alice annoyed me because she was basically a macguffin with a pretty face slapped onto it that we were all supposed to like because she was flighty, selfish, materialistic, and the "friend" that Meyers thought everyone wants.
It didn't help that her shallowness was also a product of bad writing.
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Pripyat Rarity
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Post by Pripyat Rarity on Mar 15, 2011 18:14:52 GMT -8
Alice is just as much of a Mary Sue as Bella is, only a different type. While Bella is a self insert, Alice is a Bitch!Sue/Victim!Sue.
I've seen similar characters in RPs created by people who believe that a tragic backstory and a nasty attitude mean that a character can't be a Sue.
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limelightqueen
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You know how to whistle, don't you?[Mo0:0]
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Post by limelightqueen on Mar 17, 2011 14:44:31 GMT -8
^In Midnight Sun, she has a vision of her and Bella being friends:
And suddenly, Jasp
Undeline of mine. Seriously, she's not angry about her death, she's angry about her vision failing. Irritate? Seriously? Edward killing another human being only renders irritation? Irritation is what you get when you've been in the line at Starbucks for twenty minutes and the guy in front of you only just now started thinking about what he wants to order. Your brother committing murder should cause rage, hurt and guilt for not being able to stop him. Not irritation. [/size][/color][/font][/quote]
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Graceful Lament
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Come the war, come the averice. Come the war, come hell.
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Post by Graceful Lament on Mar 18, 2011 8:09:29 GMT -8
^In Midnight Sun, she has a vision of her and Bella being friends:
And suddenly, Jasp
Undeline of mine. Seriously, she's not angry about her death, she's angry about her vision failing. Irritate? Seriously? Edward killing another human being only renders irritation? Irritation is what you get when you've been in the line at Starbucks for twenty minutes and the guy in front of you only just now started thinking about what he wants to order. Your brother committing murder should cause rage, hurt and guilt for not being able to stop him. Not irritation. [/size][/color][/font][/quote][/quote] Particularly if the human being in question is supposed to be your best friend. Seriously, you'd think she'd be a little more upset by that.
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Kippies
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Post by Kippies on Mar 18, 2011 8:50:39 GMT -8
IMO alice is just a walking, talking... sorry... dancing, bubblying (that's how she is always desribed right) plot device. The "crazy person with visions" stereotype has been done before, much better too.
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Post by Lil' Raskol LobLaw on Mar 18, 2011 10:09:55 GMT -8
She's also a stereotypical teenage girl. Always wanting to shop and materialistic as hell. I mean, really? You're going to kidnap one of your supposed friends over an effing car? And one you can buy just as easily no less?
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Post by Lady of Himring on Mar 18, 2011 16:32:04 GMT -8
^But, but she's doing it to protect her!! [<-sarcasm] I said it once, I'll say it again: For all the bullshit they say about wanting Bella to have a normal life, they go out of their way to make sure she gets the 'normal' they think it's appropiate.
And it's also the best way to ensure Bella get everything without Bella being materialistic. Give that to another character, Bella's humble.
Irritate? Seriously? Edward killing another human being only renders irritation? Irritation is what you get when you've been in the line at Starbucks for twenty minutes and the guy in front of you only just now started thinking about what he wants to order. Your brother committing murder should cause rage, hurt and guilt for not being able to stop him. Not irritation. I know. I know, but that's Alice for you.
@graceful Lament: They're not friends yet. Alice saw a 'vision' of them being friends which of course, means is set in stone and is bound to happen.
Which is coincidentially, when Edward decides he loves her.
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Post by Blue Suede Shoes on Mar 25, 2011 8:48:33 GMT -8
Irritate? Seriously? Edward killing another human being only renders irritation? Irritation is what you get when you've been in the line at Starbucks for twenty minutes and the guy in front of you only just now started thinking about what he wants to order. Your brother committing murder should cause rage, hurt and guilt for not being able to stop him. Not irritation. Yeah, for real. That's pretty sociopathic. "I would be so inconvenienced by that!" is not really an appropriate reaction to the brutal murder of a teenage girl. Anger, sadness, grief, a sense of tragedy - yes. Irritation makes it seem like a trivial matter, which a death shouldn't be. Although even irritation is more than poor Bree Tanner got I suppose... I despise all the Cullens so very much. @graceful Lament: They're not friends yet. Alice saw a 'vision' of them being friends which of course, means is set in stone and is bound to happen. Speaking of which, how exactly does that work? Alice's visions are based on people's decisions, right? But... Bella hadn't had an opportunity to make a decision about being Alice's friend yet, had she? They weren't well enough acquainted that Bella would have reason to think it was an option. So Bella hasn't chosen yet. Alice could guess they'd be friends, but I don't see how, given the supposed limitations of her powers, she could see a vision of it. Not that Meyer sticks to those limits well. Or... at all. By the way, on the topic of Alice - how does she predict the outcome of a fight? Any battle would be based on hundreds or thousands of tiny decisions by two (or more) people reacting to each other... meaning the choices couldn't be made in advance. The fighters would probably go into the battle with a general strategy, but they couldn't predict the changeable variables that would give one side or the other an advantage. (For example, a decision-based prediction system couldn't tell you that the newborn army would be thinned by fighting each other as they approached the battle field, because it was an impulse rather than something they chose in advance.) Nor can they decide in advance how to react to their opponent, because while they may guess the opponent's general strategy, they can't know every move they'll make. Thus Alice shouldn't be able to see the outcome either. She should see the advantage going back and forth in any contest where there's anything like an even match. So... how does she claim to know?
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Post by vampirekites on Mar 25, 2011 9:22:15 GMT -8
I think it's another instance of Smeyer not knowing what she's talking about. It's a common thing for people who don't research and go with even the smallest bit of knowledge on something that is more complex than they think.
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Captain Victoria
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My oolong heals, and your dealer deals for quite a hefty fee. So I self-medicate with tea.[Mo0:13]
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Post by Captain Victoria on Mar 25, 2011 15:35:12 GMT -8
It's not so ridiculous, I think. Some people have dissociative amnesia, whereas others do not, and I'm willing to buy the DA thing with Alice because it seems like her life was not a good one.
Of course, I doubt DA was intentional on SMeyer's part.
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Post by Lady of Himring on Mar 25, 2011 16:07:58 GMT -8
^My problem with Alice not remembering her past is that every Cullen remembers it, she's the only one who doesn't.
One could argue that it was because she was in a mental institution before her turning, but every Cullen seems to remember traumatic events, she's the only one who doesn't.
Ah, Meyer fail. Problem solved
@graceful Lament: They're not friends yet. Alice saw a 'vision' of them being friends which of course, means is set in stone and is bound to happen. Speaking of which, how exactly does that work? Alice's visions are based on people's decisions, right? But... Bella hadn't had an opportunity to make a decision about being Alice's friend yet, had she? They weren't well enough acquainted that Bella would have reason to think it was an option. So Bella hasn't chosen yet. The vision happens after Edward saves Bella's life and Rosalie is on the warpath. Which means it's after Edward leaves Forks for the first time after smelling her bacon scent.
They're talking on the dinner table and suddenly Alice has the vision. She then proceeds for the rest of the book asking Edward's permition to talk to Bella.
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Post by lopez12417 on Jul 3, 2013 18:49:26 GMT -8
The one thing that irks me the most is that Alice had potential to be a good character (not good per se, but an interesting one). She had so much potential as a character as a vampire who had no memory of her life as a human, who had to go through life pretending to be one when she herself doesn't even know for sure if she was ever one in the first place. It could have been great conflict for the character and a rather interesting character arc for her to try to find out more about her past life and in doing so learn more about her-self in the process. To learn that there is more to life then shopping, and parties, and fashion. However, this part never expanded upon and it mentioned in a throwaway line. That part could have given more her more depth as a character and we could have seen a different side to her that, in a sense, could have made her a well-rounded character. Instead of the manipulative, party loving, selfish, woman-child we see in the series.
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Post by Lady of Himring on Jul 11, 2013 17:05:36 GMT -8
Something hit me the other day as I was cleaning my old blog, that is basically Alice who moves the plot in regards to Edward talking to Bella.
As I mentioned Alice has the vision, and suddenly Esme is on her side because she's happy for Edward. Almost every Cullen take Alice's word when it comes to visions, but there's something that bothers me, while Edward is on the fence in regards of Bella, it's Alice who continues to push Edward to talk to Bella.
This wouldn't be such a big deal, except that we have to take Alice's vision into account here: Alice is basically pushing for her vision to happen. And it's not any vision, it's of Bella's turning. What struck me was that every Cullen takes Alice's word for granted, when they should know that a person's split decision could turn the vision on its head. Yet, Alice's word to the Cullen's might be written in stone and 100% guaranteed to happen.
So, Alice's push for Edward to "befriend" Bella is interesting if we consider the dynamic of the Cullen women. There's Esme, who for all purposes will always side with Edward and she'll always be inclined to be a 'mommy' who apparently won't care if another parent looses a child if it means Edward gets a mate.
Then there's of course Rosalie, if there's anything to be said of Rosalie is that she's feisty. She's not one to be pushed by Alice. She's the one who stands out and alone in most Cullen decisions, this included Bella's own turning vote.
So, by Alice getting Bella, she's basically getting a human sized doll (as we witnessed on the wedding), someone whose personal voice can be shoved aside to whatever decision the Cullens make using the pretext of Bella's own well being. So, I'd say that Alice has a big manipulative personality, that's pretty obvious to me.
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Post by EquinoxSolstice92 on Oct 20, 2013 14:38:39 GMT -8
Is it bad if I don't hate Alice?
She's just a stereotype. That's it. She's like those girls who only care about make-up and shopping.
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Post by Chaotic Neutral on Oct 20, 2013 17:05:50 GMT -8
^Agreed, and that's part of the reason I dislike her so much. We have a character with a backstory that makes Edward's angst look downright pretentious, plus every reason in the world to want revenge and all the power to do so through an ability that is constantly spouted off as incredibly amazing...and rather than...y'know...DO something about the vampiric stalker she KNOWS is still around and--if not still out to get her then will still very well be able to harm others, she just forgets all about James and wastes her time, ability, and energy on incredibly frivolous things.
She predicts weather. She plays the stock market. She acts like a stereotypical valley girl. She makes more cash than any human being could possibly need just to waste it all on clothes she only wears ONCE and dressing up people like her own personal Barbie dolls. And then it's wondered why her haters think she has control issues.
Hell, going off what Nostalgia Critic said about Bella, the same could be said of Alice and the others. Every Cullen in some way have all the makings of amazing villains. But, much like Twilight itself, Meyer wasted a perfectly good plot.
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Post by marienomad on Aug 30, 2014 15:04:07 GMT -8
I wonder how does Alice react to say a disaster? If she saw a crime that involves a lot of people dying, would she try to stop it?
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Post by annoyed on Aug 30, 2014 20:25:24 GMT -8
I wonder how does Alice react to say a disaster? If she saw a crime that involves a lot of people dying, would she try to stop it? Not unless those people were her own family, otherwise she wouldn't care
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Post by Lady of Himring on Dec 15, 2014 14:06:14 GMT -8
I wonder how does Alice react to say a disaster? If she saw a crime that involves a lot of people dying, would she try to stop it? We saw what happened during New Moon, when she steal Bella to save Edward. A lot of people enter the Volturi cave and are about to die, she doesn't give a damn.
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