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Post by Lady of Himring on Nov 18, 2010 21:22:36 GMT -8
Yeah, the most hilarious part is that Leah is such a bitter harpy for thinking mean thoughts about the man who left her for her sister, but Bella is a total peach when she describes her classmates as "chess club nerds" and "golden retrievers" and says that they are "nattering her nerves" (which isn't what nattering means FYI) because they are...nice to the new kid? ^This. But my guess for this is that Bella's the reader, since she's such a blank space. So I guess it's easier for the fans to "excuse" Bella for her own bitchess thus, excusing themselves for being horrible. Yet they turn around and cry foul when someone tells them the truth in their faces. Remember when "Bitch Leah" let Bella have it for being horrible to Jacob? Yeah there you go.
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blenderbender
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Post by blenderbender on Nov 19, 2010 13:28:12 GMT -8
I am always happy to hear what my audience thinks for my stories. Yeah, my idea was to have her not take him back, but I found myself enjoying the way I characterized him and I didn't want to have to stick him back with Emily.
Yeah, if I were Leah, Sam and Emily = dead.
I agree about Jake/Leah before the imprint. I mean, hey they were working on it. On a trivial note, Leah and Jacob were together in the Bible. Leah's the character I feel bad for there. Hey, if my husband slept with my sister and my maid, he'd be sleeping on the couch at the very least.
I have my own theory on imprinting. The man's body and mind are under the influence of imprinting, but the person they were before is still there somewhere. They know everything that they're being forced to do. However they are unable to stop themselves. They are even unable to think about the unfairness of it when in wolf form. Sam knows how terrible he's treating Leah, but he's unable to do anything that could hurt the imprint, including stick up for her. Jacob and Quil know that they're pedophiles but they can't do anything about it. Jared knows he's being unfair to Kim by not really loving her, but he can't tell her. Paul knows he doesn't really love Rachel, but again, nothing. Outside, they're as happy as can be. Inside, they never stop screaming.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2010 16:50:45 GMT -8
Not to mention that Bella went emo and into some kind of coma-like state when Edward left her for months without even trying to do anything about it and everyone went 'Oh, poor Bella!'. Leah gets bitter when her life turns to hell with Sam/Emily happening, her dad dying and dealing with being a shapeshifter, and she's just a bitch. I don't think I'll ever understand some people.
I actually agree with your theory on imprinting. I find it impossible to imagine that all the guys are really fine with all of this. At first, sure, it's great you're in love with the one person who matters most to you and all that crap, but surely all of them stop thinking of their imprintees at one point and just wonder what the hell happened to them. I remember Jacob the most so I'll go off of him, how did he just drop his morals and decision to try and kill Renesmee (I'm pretty sure he was planning to) and went on perfectly happy with imprinting on a baby? Surely at some point he's going to remember his old self and try breaking free, or atleast I like to pretend he would because I sort of enjoyed him back then. Then again in Meyerland, even if she wrote more about the shapeshifters I can't see her letting the characters try and do that storyline since she seems to consider imprinting an instant happily-ever-after.
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blenderbender
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Post by blenderbender on Nov 19, 2010 17:33:14 GMT -8
Not to mention that Bella went emo and into some kind of coma-like state when Edward left her for months without even trying to do anything about it and everyone went 'Oh, poor Bella!'. Leah gets bitter when her life turns to hell with Sam/Emily happening, her dad dying and dealing with being a shapeshifter, and she's just a bitch. I don't think I'll ever understand some people. I actually agree with your theory on imprinting. I find it impossible to imagine that all the guys are really fine with all of this. At first, sure, it's great you're in love with the one person who matters most to you and all that crap, but surely all of them stop thinking of their imprintees at one point and just wonder what the hell happened to them. I remember Jacob the most so I'll go off of him, how did he just drop his morals and decision to try and kill Renesmee (I'm pretty sure he was planning to) and went on perfectly happy with imprinting on a baby? Surely at some point he's going to remember his old self and try breaking free, or atleast I like to pretend he would because I sort of enjoyed him back then. Then again in Meyerland, even if she wrote more about the shapeshifters I can't see her letting the characters try and do that storyline since she seems to consider imprinting an instant happily-ever-after. Yeah, nobody has sympathy for the girl they'd have to argue with and work to get along with. Exactly. I came up with it when I discussed it with Chaotic Neutral and I got to thinking "How can Sam not see what he's doing to Leah?" and then I finally decided, he could. He just couldn't act on it. It made sense for him and the other imprinted wolves.
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Post by Catalpa on Nov 19, 2010 17:39:08 GMT -8
Imprinting kills the person that imprints. Or at the very least lobotomizes them. They are no longer the person they once were, they are merely an empty vessel that is filled with whatever the imprintee wants from them. It's a horrifying concept.
Yeah, in Jacob's imprinting scene, he says that all his hopes and dreams and rage against vampires were like balloons tied to him with string, and when he saw Renesmee, the strings were cut. Everything that made him who he was stripped away in an instant.
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Post by blenderbender on Nov 19, 2010 18:14:11 GMT -8
That's why I like to imagine they're still them somewhere inside, but unable to act.
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limelightqueen
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Post by limelightqueen on Nov 19, 2010 21:02:13 GMT -8
I agree about Jake/Leah before the imprint. I mean, hey they were working on it. On a trivial note, Leah and Jacob were together in the Bible. Leah's the character I feel bad for there. Hey, if my husband slept with my sister and my maid, he'd be sleeping on the couch at the very least. Jacob's other wife in the bible was Rachel. Which is Jake's sister's name. Yeah, think on that one for a little while. God, I hope that wasn't intentional. Then again...Rachel and Leah (and according to some biblical scholars their handmaidens as well) were Jacob's first cousins. At least there are no Zilpah's and Bilhah's in Twilight.
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Post by blenderbender on Nov 19, 2010 21:44:40 GMT -8
I agree about Jake/Leah before the imprint. I mean, hey they were working on it. On a trivial note, Leah and Jacob were together in the Bible. Leah's the character I feel bad for there. Hey, if my husband slept with my sister and my maid, he'd be sleeping on the couch at the very least. Jacob's other wife in the bible was Rachel. Which is Jake's sister's name. Yeah, think on that one for a little while. God, I hope that wasn't intentional. Then again...Rachel and Leah (and according to some biblical scholars their handmaidens as well) were Jacob's first cousins. At least there are no Zilpah's and Bilhah's in Twilight. I know. I'm praying it was unintentional, but with Meyer one can never tell. I just thought I'd point it out because I always felt bad for Leah, both in Twilight, and in the Bible. I mean, she's hated by her husband, ignored for her sister, ignored in general, she has 7 kids and gets no thanks, her kids are ignored for Rachel's, her daughter is raped and her sons are punished for getting revenge, and then her daughter is ignored. Then she dies. Why is it girls named Leah CANNOT win?
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limelightqueen
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Post by limelightqueen on Nov 19, 2010 22:22:49 GMT -8
I love the name Leah BTW (although I pronounce it the original Hebrew way LAY-uh, yes like Princess Leia).
I always felt affection for the biblical Leah too, especially since I spent years in school learning biblical exegesis and hermeneutics. She constantly got the short end of the stick. Especially when you learn about why she named her sons what she named them- Reuben means "he will love me," like, because she'd given him a son now Jacob will love her. Simeon means "hear my suffering" either a reference to Jacob or God. Levi means join, like she hoped Jacob would join her now. If I remember correctly than Judah means praise as if she wanted praise for her baby-birthing abilities. Plus I should add that according to Jewish oral tradition the matriarchs knew that Jacob would have twelve sons from four wives. Basic math says that they each should have three sons each. When Judah was born it meant that Leah got like extra specialness for her baby-birthing abilities.
Issachar means recompense like a plea to acknowledge what she's done. Zebulun means exalt, again, exalt her.
Dina means vindication or judgment. To understand the meaning of this one you have to go back to the twelve sons thing. Dina was the eleventh child of Jacob. At this point, Leah already had six sons and Zilpah and Bilhah had two each. Leah knew that if she had a boy than at most Rachel would only have one son. And since in those days a woman's worth was measured in how many sons she had, if Rachel only had one son she'd be less even than the handmaidens. So when Dina was a girl, Leah named her that because she felt that because it was a girl her sister would be vindicated because God judged that she'd have two sons. That story always made me like Leah even more.
Also, in the bible when Leah is first introduced it's said her eyes are "rachot" which can mean either tender or weak. There is a Jewish oral tradition that says that people always told Leah and Rachel that since Laban had two daughters and Rebecca two sons Leah would marry Esau and Rachel Jacob. Knowing Esau's reputation, Leah bawled her eyes out about that, making them tender.
Although, I should mention that Simon and Levi's revenge for Dina's rape was a little much. Yeah, kill the rapist sure, but kill every single man over eight days old in the entire city? Yeah, that one is a bit much.
Also, the way it is written does make you question if it was in fact rape. It does not use the word rape but rather humble, although violate is another translation with different vowels (Hebrew is weird and the vowels are little symbols under the words that are not in the Torah scrolls). It also said his soul joined her and he loved her and he spoke to her heart. That last part makes it sound like the sex was consensual. It's possible that over time it came to be seen as rape because it was a Gentile lying with a Jewess/Pre-Christian Monotheist and that just cannot be done! Also, because Levi became the holy priestly tribe they didn't want to insult them.
Whoa, way off topic. My bad.
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Post by reniefuwa on Nov 19, 2010 23:05:25 GMT -8
Yeah, the Leah of Bible fame was essentially the unwanted one, wasn't she? That would help explain why Laban tricked Jacob into marrying her before Rachel. It could have been that she had no other suitors (or maybe 'meant' for Esau, never heard that one before).
There are parallels, for sure; scary how many.
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limelightqueen
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Post by limelightqueen on Nov 19, 2010 23:31:41 GMT -8
There's also a story that says that because Jacob tricked Isaac by pretending to be his brother he was tricked by Leah pretending to be her sister and that it's okay because they both turned out for the best. Or, something.
Yeah, but the whole my beloved chose my sister (isn't it said that Leah and Emily were more like sisters than cousins?) is pretty blatant. But then again, since when has Meyer ever done subtle?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2010 0:46:51 GMT -8
I love the name Leah BTW (although I pronounce it the original Hebrew way LAY-uh, yes like Princess Leia). I always felt affection for the biblical Leah too, especially since I spent years in school learning biblical exegesis and hermeneutics. She constantly got the short end of the stick. Especially when you learn about why she named her sons what she named them- Reuben means "he will love me," like, because she'd given him a son now Jacob will love her. Simeon means "hear my suffering" either a reference to Jacob or God. Levi means join, like she hoped Jacob would join her now. If I remember correctly than Judah means praise as if she wanted praise for her baby-birthing abilities. Plus I should add that according to Jewish oral tradition the matriarchs knew that Jacob would have twelve sons from four wives. Basic math says that they each should have three sons each. When Judah was born it meant that Leah got like extra specialness for her baby-birthing abilities. Issachar means recompense like a plea to acknowledge what she's done. Zebulun means exalt, again, exalt her. Dina means vindication or judgment. To understand the meaning of this one you have to go back to the twelve sons thing. Dina was the eleventh child of Jacob. At this point, Leah already had six sons and Zilpah and Bilhah had two each. Leah knew that if she had a boy than at most Rachel would only have one son. And since in those days a woman's worth was measured in how many sons she had, if Rachel only had one son she'd be less even than the handmaidens. So when Dina was a girl, Leah named her that because she felt that because it was a girl her sister would be vindicated because God judged that she'd have two sons. That story always made me like Leah even more. Also, in the bible when Leah is first introduced it's said her eyes are "rachot" which can mean either tender or weak. There is a Jewish oral tradition that says that people always told Leah and Rachel that since Laban had two daughters and Rebecca two sons Leah would marry Esau and Rachel Jacob. Knowing Esau's reputation, Leah bawled her eyes out about that, making them tender. Although, I should mention that Simon and Levi's revenge for Dina's rape was a little much. Yeah, kill the rapist sure, but kill every single man over eight days old in the entire city? Yeah, that one is a bit much. Also, the way it is written does make you question if it was in fact rape. It does not use the word rape but rather humble, although violate is another translation with different vowels (Hebrew is weird and the vowels are little symbols under the words that are not in the Torah scrolls). It also said his soul joined her and he loved her and he spoke to her heart. That last part makes it sound like the sex was consensual. It's possible that over time it came to be seen as rape because it was a Gentile lying with a Jewess/Pre-Christian Monotheist and that just cannot be done! Also, because Levi became the holy priestly tribe they didn't want to insult them. Whoa, way off topic. My bad. I think the guy completely loved her because he and his entire household converted religions so he could marry her.
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Post by reniefuwa on Nov 20, 2010 1:25:19 GMT -8
What? Who? Jacob didn't convert. If anyone, that would be Abraham.
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blenderbender
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Post by blenderbender on Nov 20, 2010 8:53:07 GMT -8
limelightqueen I've always pronounced it Lee-uh, but I love Star Wars, and Leia is no exception. Her mother on the other hand... I don't actually study all the religious stuff, but I'm at a Catholic school and I'm learning the Bible and stuff. And I do study names, and so I definitly got the meanings. In the Bible we use, she says she's naming Judah "praise" because she says "Four sons! Now I shall praise the Lord!" Ahh, geez. not even her mother likes Dinah? Poor girl. Now I feel really bad for her. When Jacob died, he said stuff to all his sons, but not her. I've never heard of the Esau thing. I'd only heard that Jacob had a "love at first sight" deal with Rachel. The Bible is full of disproportionate retribution. Back then, it was probably normal. The one I've read says she was violated, and didn't say anything of him being nice to her or anything. It's all good. If by some miracle Leah gets a kid (maybe when she stops phasing?) she should steer clear of the name Dinah.
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limelightqueen
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Post by limelightqueen on Nov 20, 2010 14:16:22 GMT -8
I never got that Dina wasn't loved by her mother, but rather that her mother was glad she had a daughter because that meant her sister could have two sons. Or, read The Red Tent (which is very canonically false) which puts an interesting perspective on Dina.
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blenderbender
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Post by blenderbender on Nov 20, 2010 16:24:53 GMT -8
^ Ahh, okay, I misinterpreted your message. I thought she was mad that Rachel would have two sons. My bad. Okay, so Dinah and Leah will always have each other.
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Post by Vividus on Nov 20, 2010 18:27:28 GMT -8
Several things I'd like to say about Sam/Emily/Leah and whatever...
Firstly, it's jacked up that Sam just went with Emily, no questions asked. I mean, he could at least feel like an asshole for hurting Leah the way he did although according to the series, he needs to be with Emily.
Secondly, Emily and Leah and close friends/relatives. Wouldn't Emily feel like a bitch for taking Sam away from Leah, whether it's meant to be or not? I mean, what kind of horrible relative doesn't feel bad?
Thirdly, no matter how much you love someone, how can you possible stand it around them when they're so angry they fucked up your face?
Conclusion: Everyone in the book is a dumbass or an asshole.
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Post by blenderbender on Nov 20, 2010 18:59:59 GMT -8
^ The question of how Sam can't feel like an asshole has lead to my own theory on imprinting, and yes, Emily is a horrible relative.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2010 9:06:14 GMT -8
I was browsing the Twilight wiki thingy (yea i know odd XP) and it said that leah transformed because she has a a high level of testosterone in her bloodstream........what are they saying she's more of a man?
I wonder what Emily's parents think of their daughter stealing her cousins BF and think its all okey dokey. Are they even mentioned?
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Post by dragonfire5000 on Nov 21, 2010 10:01:26 GMT -8
I was browsing the Twilight wiki thingy (yea i know odd XP) and it said that leah transformed because she has a a high level of testosterone in her bloodstream........what are they saying she's more of a man? This could potentially lead to more unfortunate implications. Knowing Meyer? Their reaction would probably be something like "So when can we expect pups kids?"
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blenderbender
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Post by blenderbender on Nov 21, 2010 13:31:17 GMT -8
^Sadly, I think we can expect that. Though I like to think they're disgusted by it. Hey, a girl can dream.
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Post by Lady of Himring on Nov 21, 2010 18:31:14 GMT -8
^ The question of how Sam can't feel like an asshole has lead to my own theory on imprinting, and yes, Emily is a horrible relative. ^Liked your theory of the imprint. On the Emily thing, I honestly never understood all the "she's a saint" for accepting Sam. Granted, having your face slashed out must be a horrible thing, yet it's that same thing that brings them together. She just takes him as soon as he offers to off himself because of what he did and everybody else just runs along the "bear attack" excuse. It's am effed up mess.
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limelightqueen
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Post by limelightqueen on Nov 21, 2010 21:47:39 GMT -8
I was browsing the Twilight wiki thingy (yea i know odd XP) and it said that leah transformed because she has a a high level of testosterone in her bloodstream........what are they saying she's more of a man? OK, I could be showing my ignorance here because I suck, suck, suck at science and I especially suck at Biology but wouldn't extremely high levels of testosterone in a woman's system make her infertile? Which again, if this fact where handled appropriately than it could have been extremely interesting and thought provoking. But since it's Meyer, well, to her it would make sense that the slutty bitch is more of a man than a woman.
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Post by Elentari on Nov 22, 2010 9:40:25 GMT -8
Imprinting kills the person that imprints. Or at the very least lobotomizes them. They are no longer the person they once were, they are merely an empty vessel that is filled with whatever the imprintee wants from them. It's a horrifying concept. Yeah, in Jacob's imprinting scene, he says that all his hopes and dreams and rage against vampires were like balloons tied to him with string, and when he saw Renesmee, the strings were cut. Everything that made him who he was stripped away in an instant. I agree completely. The way imprinting is always described makes it look like they basically stop being independent persons and they just become this extra appendage to the imprintee. They have no opinions or stable personalities. It also makes you think about their self-image. If they're always ready to change themselves for the benefit of the imprintee, how can they even have a steady image of themselves? Also, it makes you wonder how any woman would want to be in a relationship with a guy like that. It's not an equal relationship in any way, at least. I wouldn't want to be the one with all the opinions and will - I'd start to hate the guy if he were always submissive.
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Post by queencherryfairy on Nov 22, 2010 12:45:38 GMT -8
OK, I could be showing my ignorance here because I suck, suck, suck at science and I especially suck at Biology but wouldn't extremely high levels of testosterone in a woman's system make her infertile? Which again, if this fact where handled appropriately than it could have been extremely interesting and thought provoking. But since it's Meyer, well, to her it would make sense that the slutty bitch is more of a man than a woman. Yes, this is what happens with Polycystic Ovarian Syndrome (PCOS). Higher testostorone levels and lower estrogen levels makes it more difficult for a healthy egg to be maintained in the woman's body. There are other causes for infertility, of course, but I think a link to higher testosterone level (if that even exists in canon at all) could very well make this disease the cause of Leah's infertility, not the fact that she's a Meyerwolf.
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Post by blenderbender on Nov 22, 2010 15:30:37 GMT -8
^Now if only Meyer knew jack about science.
@purple Rose- Thanks a lot.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2010 16:09:45 GMT -8
I always thought Leah didn't get her periods because she was frozen in time.
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Post by blenderbender on Nov 22, 2010 16:23:06 GMT -8
That's Meyer's explanation. So, theoretically, if she stops, she'll be fertile again. Although, the guys don't seem to have that fertility problem.
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Post by Lady of Himring on Nov 22, 2010 16:35:41 GMT -8
blenderbender: You're welcome, it's a great theory and it makes sense.
I always thought that the imprint was somewhat like a brainwash, that the person you were before the imprint was erased to make space for the person the imprintee wanted from the imprinter.
I feel for Leah, like I mentioned before she had the worst hand delt to. She lost a lot in one go, she's labeled a harpy and a bitch. On the plus side, she strikes me as someone who would say: Fuck this, and leave for college somewhere.
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Post by Elentari on Nov 22, 2010 16:55:42 GMT -8
I always thought Leah didn't get her periods because she was frozen in time. Wasn't that what the meyerpires are? Shifters only stay unchanging as long as they keep shifting, but even then it seems, at least for Jacob, that they keep on getting taller and bigger. I think one explanation on Leah's infertility was that she can't get pregnant as long as she is a shifter, because her fursploding could harm the child. But then again, Meyer does imply that she started shifting just because she actually was infertile. I don't really get Meyer's logi... oh wait, there is none. I keep forgetting that.
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