The Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales

[Elentari]

So, I thought about starting a convo on The Silmarillion and the past times of Middle Earth. For a brief introduction for people who might have not read or heard of these books, The Silmarillion is basically the short history of Middle Earth, right from the creation of the world. It introduces a lot of amazing characters from the original Big Bad Morgoth to Beren and Lúthien. It also enlightens Sauron's past and the making of the rings.

Unfinished Tales of Númenor and Middle Earth (which is the full title of the book) consists of essays and stories Tolkien wrote but never finished. His son Christopher Tolkien edited them later on and published them. It provides more information on the several points during the history of Middle Earth.

I adore both the books to bits, but I gotta say that The Silmarillion is still my favourite. The book is full of beautiful, captivating stories that I think are equal to the trilogy - all of them have the potential to be just as grand and epic, but sadly we don't get to know them better. I seriously need to read it again soon (whenever I get rid of the exams *grumbles*)!

I still remember when I was reading it for the first time and what a tremendous experience it was - the stories were just so sad and touching, so full of battles and loss yet the glints of light and hope appearing every now and then. It also amazes me just how well it all was weaved together and how no loose ends were left hanging. The history of the Middle Earth is really complicated and you just have to admire the work Tolkien did on it.

I can't really say one favourite character, although I was always intrigued by the story of Beren and Lúthien, and Eëarendil also. Túrin Turambar's story is fascinating one, too. It has a special place in my heart because you can see the influence of the Finnish epic Kalevala (especially the story of Kullervo, son of Kalervo) in Túrin Turambar's story very clearly.

Here are some questions to start the conversation:

• What is your favourite part/story of The Silmarillion/Unfinished Tales?
  
• Is there something you don't like about these books?
  
• Do you have favourite characters?
  
• Who is your least favourite character?
  
• If a movie adaptation was made from The Silmarillion, what story would you like to see filmed (this of course being completely hypothetical)?
  

[La Dame Du Lac]

I've read the Silmarillion, but I don't remember much of it... Something I don't like : too lengthy and too much description. My favorite character : I don't have any. Lest Favorite : I don't know since I don't remember much. I don't think the Silmarillion could be made into a film, honestly.

[Elentari]

I didn't think there was too much description - I liked it very much. If you find lengthy descriptions exhausting, how did you get through LotR in the first place? And if you don't even remember much of it, what is the point of answering this topic, then?

I'm not saying that a movie should be made (it was just a convo starter), but I do think there are stories that could look great on the big screen, like the leaving of the Noldor, the tale of Beren and Lúthien, or the rise and fall of elven kingdoms of Middle Earth.

[samedi]

Turin or Hurin would be my favourites. I also liked the part where Melkor began trying to worm his way back into the favour of the other Valar. For Gods, the Valar really are stupid.

[Elentari]

Yeah, either that or they are just really blue-eyed or something like that. I don't know, I felt like they just wanted to believe he had changed his ways and tried to give him a second chance. After all, they can't even kill him for good.

[Lady of Himring]

I love the Silmarillion, I have yet to read Unfinished Tales.

I love anything with the Feanorians, I really do. I have a special fondness for Maedhros and Maglor; loved Nerdanel. Will admit that I would have love to read more of Galadriel and Celeborn, he's such and obsure figure I'd love to have for information.

Túrin's story was wonderfully tragic. But I have to say that I have a special fondness for Elrond, for every loss he's gone throught since his childhood.
I love tragic stories, I guess.

[Alkonost Storm]

I loved Silmarillion though I admit at times I found it incredibly wordy. If it were turned into a film I think the main story would have to be the one of the Silmarils; they're the namesake of the book and the cause for A LOT of shit that happens later on in the story. I think one of my favorite bits that I loved to read was how they described The Two Trees. Of course for some reason I also liked reading about Ungoliant nomming on the trees ><;;; (I DUNNO WHY D8)

[makoeyes]

^Don't feel bad; I love Ungoliant, too. ^^

I tried to read this years and years ago, like I was 14 at the oldest. I got to the part where Morgoth steals the Silmarils (I didn't spoiler it because that's pretty much the basis for the entire plot. I mean, everyone knows it happens). I'm reading it right now, and it's far, far easier for me to understand everything and I'm really enjoying it.

It has a special place in my heart because you can see the influence of the Finnish epic Kalevala (especially the story of Kullervo, son of Kalervo) in Túrin Turambar's story very clearly.

I haven't gotten to that part yet, but I can definitely see what you mean with the Finnish similarities. I cracked open a book on mythology, and I re-read the tragically short section on Finnish mythology, and I can really see how much Tolkien drew on the Finnish lore. This I'll get to below.

Favorite characters: I haven't really gotten to the "story" part of it yet, but from what I've read my favorites are:

Least favorites: I don't really have any yet.

Favorite parts: I suppose my favorite part so far is the Ainulende and Valaquenta. I also love the Sundering the Elves and the descriptions of the Two Trees. I also liked the description of the First War from what was described.

I also liked the part where Melkor began trying to worm his way back into the favour of the other Valar. For Gods, the Valar really are stupid.

In their defense, if you think of them as being like angels, and from what I've read, they really do seem somewhat omnibenevolent, then it makes since that they'd want to show mercy to everyone and believe that there's good inside of everyone.

Last thing I want to mention right now is the influences of mythological connections in Tolkien's work. I know there's a Wikipedia article on Tolkien's inspirations, but I swear these are all things I noticed without help.

Like you've noted, Elentari, there's definite Finnish elements to Tolkien's works. Manwe is probably based off of Ukko, who was likewise the king of the gods, as well as the ruler of air and sky. Like Aman, the Finnish land of the dead, Tuonela, lies across the sea. Like Tuonela, the halls of Mandos (Lorien) are located in Aman, and is the place the elves go when they die. There's obvious differences though in that Tuonela was bleak and frighteneing whereas Aman is heavenly. Finally, Tuoenela is associated with swans, and likewise swans dwelt in the Bay of Eldamar. Elvish is based on Finnish, and reading the Silmarillion, I can definitely see the Finnish influence of the names.

Though this definitely wasn't intentional on Tolkien's part, I've noticed at least one similarity between Kemetic (Egyptian) myth and Tolkien's universe. Manwe is called the ruler of the "breath" of Arda. In the same way, the supreme Kemetic god Aman-Ra was the ruler of air, and he was specifically connected with "breath."

The strongest connections are with Norse and Germanic mythology. The Rohirrim are obviously Germanic in nature. There's the connection between elves and dwarves of course. Like the elves of the Tolkienverse, the Ljosalfar are magical creatures and live in another "world" close to the realm of the gods. Varda is definitely similar to Frigg. Both Varda and Frigg are connected with the stars (Frigg wove the constellations). They're both queen of the gods. They're both sky deities, with Varda being ruler of the stars, and Frigg also having powers over the stars and also clouds. Frigg was the goddess of motherhood, and likewise, Varda is like a mother as well, particularly in respect to the elves. Orome is similar to Odin; they both ride horses, wander through lands of mortals, and are deities of war and hunting. Tulkas is also similar to Thor, being a deity of strength and enjoys battle and slayer of monsters. There's also a concept of the power of fate. Even the gods in Germanic myths were subject to Wyrd (the Germanic concept of fate), and likewise the Valar are subject to the music of Eru Illuvatar.

There's also definite similarities to Zoroastrianism (if not influences). Morgoth was, unlike Satan, more deserving of being called the "god of evil," much like Angra Mainyu. Morgoth was the creator of evil things and corrupter of good things like orcs, darkness, fire and ice. Likewise, Angra Mainyu was the lord of evil and created evil things in mockery of the benevolence of Ahura Mazdar, though both were unable to equal the respective "Children" of "God" (elves and humans in Tolkien's works, and human in Zoroastrianism). In Zoroastraniasm, key players in the fight against evil, and likewise, humans had "strange gifts," such as being the primary implenents of Eru Illuvatar's benevolent will. Finally, both have an ultimate evil opposed by a more powerful good, and evil will eventually be destroyed forever.

And of course, Tolkien's own Christianity is an influence. There's the idea of the Fallen nature of man, but at the same time the idea that God cherishes human beings and humans are fully redeemable. There's also the idea that humans are the "Children" of God. Obviously, Eru Illuvatar is equivalent to God, and Morgoth is equivalent to Satan. The Valar and Maiar are like angels (though they also acts as polytheistic gods at the same time).

Finally, there's similarities to Greek mythology, though these are only minor. The "big three" of both pantheon ruled over sky, sea and earth (in that order in respect to power). Aule has similarities to Hephaestus. Ulmo has similarities to Poseidon. Osse also has similarities to Poseidon in the sense that they have destructive tendencies and rule over sea storms. Yavanna and Demeter are similar in that they're both "earth mothers," and rule over plants and agriculture. The Valar are fourteen in number, just as the Olympians number fourteen. However the similarites stop there, based on what I've personally gathered.

Anyone else have any observations on Tolkien's inspirations and similarities to legends, religions, and myths?

[Madaraki]

I think what I found the most fascinating overall with the religious ties in the Silmarillion was how it seemed to draw more from polytheistic faiths than Lord of the Rings itself which punches you in the nuts with Christianity right and left.

(I LOVE Tolkien's stuff and make it a point to read through The Lord of the Rings at least once each year, but even I get a bit exasperated after a while with a character undergoing a Jesus-style transfiguration while everyone around them suffers from a case of wonder-coming-into-their-eyes...)


Of The Silmarillion; I constantly alternate between considering Feanor one of the greatest literary badasses ever, and considering him one of the biggest literary assholes ever.

SPOILER: Click to show

his body was incinerated upon death because his spirit was literally that damn fiery. It's something I'd have expected in Gurren Lagann.

[valkyria]

I've read the Silmarillion and I loved it : excellent characters and everything. I loved the Elves' stories in it.