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Post by bellegold89 on Mar 24, 2014 10:18:48 GMT -8
Hi all, I've been looking into signs of abuse that Jacob fulfils in Breaking Dawn because I was talking about it with a twi-hard who thinks that because Jacob will wait until Renesmee is an 'adult' it's all OK and not child grooming. I'm going to copy the argument that I made as I'd just like some feedback from the members of this forum Obviously the twi-hards are telling me I'm stupid and wrong but I think some here may agree with me
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Post by arcanius on Mar 24, 2014 10:33:49 GMT -8
I deem thy arguments worthy, acolyte of twi-hate. Arise and recieve my approval
Seriously though, you're pretty much right
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Post by marienomad on Mar 24, 2014 11:50:03 GMT -8
Oh yeah. The whole imprinting thing is just so wrong on both ends. On the imprint side, they are stuck with a huge wolf guy as a stalker and has no choice but to stay in the reservation. On the imprinter side, they are stuck as a slave with no control for the rest of their lives.
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Post by bellegold89 on Mar 25, 2014 13:48:33 GMT -8
Also the implication that it was the egg that would have become Renesmee that kept him around the whole time. So wth would have happened if Belle had stayed with him? BTW arcanius I thank thee most profusely!
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Post by marienomad on Mar 25, 2014 17:51:12 GMT -8
Also the implication that it was the egg that would have become Renesmee that kept him around the whole time. So wth would have happened if Belle had stayed with him? BTW arcanius I thank thee most profusely! Yeah, it ruins the whole Bella/Jacob relationship. And what would have happened if they had a kid together.
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Post by bellegold89 on Mar 26, 2014 5:55:22 GMT -8
I know I mean they might not have had a child when that egg was the one that would be there, but it's possible.
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Post by arcanius on Mar 26, 2014 7:26:51 GMT -8
Basicaly, what if they stayed together and had a child from that exact same egg... This gives me a good and bad point: 1(Bad).It's creepy incest and clearly psychotic 2(Good). Let's see twilight fangirls try and fawn over this MWAHAHAHAHAA!!!
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Post by Lady of Himring on Mar 26, 2014 20:18:21 GMT -8
Your arguments are good and solid. If they just call you stupid, you can also point out the other two imprints that we know, as both are messed up:
Sam and Leah's cousin (can't be bothered to remember her name): He morphed right there with her and attcked her, Christ on a cracker, the woman ended in the hospital and with 3 scars that are bad enough to use the 'bear attack' excuse. And then guess what? Emotional manipulation on Sam's behalf because he feels so terrible, he'll kill himself if she wants to. Seriously? What kind of relationship is that? Emotional abuse at it's finest.
And then there's Quil/Clair: On Jacob's own pov on New Moon/Eclipse, we know that eventually those two will hook up, Jacob's own words are that Quil has "14 years of monk-itud" ahead of him. Btw, Claire is 2 at the time. And there's already the expectation of sex with someone she'll otherwise grow to view as an elder brother/care giver.
Hope this helps you out.
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Post by bellegold89 on Mar 27, 2014 7:00:52 GMT -8
Your arguments are good and solid. If they just call you stupid, you can also point out the other two imprints that we know, as both are messed up:
Sam and Leah's cousin (can't be bothered to remember her name): He morphed right there with her and attcked her, Christ on a cracker, the woman ended in the hospital and with 3 scars that are bad enough to use the 'bear attack' excuse. And then guess what? Emotional manipulation on Sam's behalf because he feels so terrible, he'll kill himself if she wants to. Seriously? What kind of relationship is that? Emotional abuse at it's finest.
And then there's Quil/Clair: On Jacob's own pov on New Moon/Eclipse, we know that eventually those two will hook up, Jacob's own words are that Quil has "14 years of monk-itud" ahead of him. Btw, Claire is 2 at the time. And there's already the expectation of sex with someone she'll otherwise grow to view as an elder brother/care giver.
Hope this helps you out. That's exactly what I pointed out - In the Sam/Emily case they're convinced it was Emily's fault and she should have backed off so Sam didn't have to hurt her () and with Quil - he's unable to date others. Surely if the imprint wasn't 'Like that' when it's a child, he wouldn't be bothered. He's supposed to see her as a little sister, but then why can't he date? And he's basically helping raise her, having an older brother/uncle figure change your relationship to a more 'mature' one after knowing you since you were small does huge damage. But the twi-hards are convinced that because he's waiting until she's older, it's not paedophilia (even though it has all the hallmarks of child grooming!!)
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Post by arcanius on Mar 27, 2014 8:24:02 GMT -8
If you wish to win in such a battle, I will gladly give you the key to the "warfare" style you need to use.
Let's for a moment stop thinking Twilight-wise. Now, think about fans really getting into the book/movie/game/whatever they like. All these different people are the same in one thing - they love it. When people are like this, they defend what they like, they pull out all kinds of arguments to do so, and are willing to cross onto the Dark Sorceries of b*llshit, just to have their illusion intact. This is a fact - people will defend what they liked even if it is a horrid and warped atrocity pulled out of the empyrean depths of Bad-Fiction Hell.
Now, Twilight's vile powers manifest thanks to the fact that while it is in fact sh*t, it's fanbase is incapable of seeing it, for two simple reasons: 1.You need to actualy think, in order to realise that 2.No human being to this day has ever been capable of sex and thought at the same time. The first dominates and therefore the second is a mathematical impossibility(Like my Gauss Rifle schematic...Shut up, it is possible to construct one, I know my theory is correct. I don't care if a numerical expression of it is impossible! *Starts crying and runs away*)
Now what you have to do in order to get them out of the corrupted grip of the series is to make them realise that by themselves. People easily accept a conclusion that they came to by themselves. In other words - go subtle, slowly and steadily guide them into that conclusion. Don't attack the fortress known as Twilight Fandom, make the defenders break it for you.
Anyhows that is the story to how I managed to make a friend of mine which I shall name E for short, to understand better the concepts of what is good writing.
Sinisterly yours Arcanius, Chaos Sorcerer
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Post by Chaotic Neutral on Mar 27, 2014 15:13:22 GMT -8
I've actually used some of these very arguments and successfully ruined Twilight for some people. It was awesome!
The simple matter is that there is no current canon-driven theory presented that actually explains imprinting. We end up with something of a conundrum.
If it's really "true love" and "soul mates", then we have the issue of Sam scarring Emily for life as he did.
If it's for reproduction, we have the issue of Jacob and Quil imprinting on children, and one of those two being a vampire/human hybrid who will grow up to be a full fledged female vampire who have been specifically stated to NOT be able to get pregnant.
If it's to give the wolves a reason to fight, well 1) they already have their friggin duty to the tribe to NOT let the vampires EAT people that should damn well be enough motivation right there and 2) there's the issue of them apparently being restricted in terms of just how far from their imprints they can travel, which kind of makes it difficult to fight vampires when you can't cross an invisible line.
And I don't care what any fan says about the attraction not being "sexual". It's GOING to be. There is full knowledge and intent for it to go that way. Jacob was literally QUIVERING at the thought of being able to have sex with Nessie in 7 years, you can't tell me his thoughts weren't "inappropriate" at that point.
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Post by arcanius on Mar 28, 2014 10:19:45 GMT -8
I've actually used some of these very arguments and successfully ruined Twilight for some people. It was awesome! The simple matter is that there is no current canon-driven theory presented that actually explains imprinting. We end up with something of a conundrum. If it's really "true love" and "soul mates", then we have the issue of Sam scarring Emily for life as he did. If it's for reproduction, we have the issue of Jacob and Quil imprinting on children, and one of those two being a vampire/human hybrid who will grow up to be a full fledged female vampire who have been specifically stated to NOT be able to get pregnant. If it's to give the wolves a reason to fight, well 1) they already have their friggin duty to the tribe to NOT let the vampires EAT people that should damn well be enough motivation right there and 2) there's the issue of them apparently being restricted in terms of just how far from their imprints they can travel, which kind of makes it difficult to fight vampires when you can't cross an invisible line. And I don't care what any fan says about the attraction not being "sexual". It's GOING to be. There is full knowledge and intent for it to go that way. Jacob was literally QUIVERING at the thought of being able to have sex with Nessie in 7 years, you can't tell me his thoughts weren't "inappropriate" at that point. I can't say that I disagree with you
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Post by bellegold89 on Mar 29, 2014 7:13:12 GMT -8
I've actually used some of these very arguments and successfully ruined Twilight for some people. It was awesome! The simple matter is that there is no current canon-driven theory presented that actually explains imprinting. We end up with something of a conundrum. If it's really "true love" and "soul mates", then we have the issue of Sam scarring Emily for life as he did. If it's for reproduction, we have the issue of Jacob and Quil imprinting on children, and one of those two being a vampire/human hybrid who will grow up to be a full fledged female vampire who have been specifically stated to NOT be able to get pregnant. If it's to give the wolves a reason to fight, well 1) they already have their friggin duty to the tribe to NOT let the vampires EAT people that should damn well be enough motivation right there and 2) there's the issue of them apparently being restricted in terms of just how far from their imprints they can travel, which kind of makes it difficult to fight vampires when you can't cross an invisible line. And I don't care what any fan says about the attraction not being "sexual". It's GOING to be. There is full knowledge and intent for it to go that way. Jacob was literally QUIVERING at the thought of being able to have sex with Nessie in 7 years, you can't tell me his thoughts weren't "inappropriate" at that point. Wait, where was he quivering? Is there a quote? I so want to know. Also did anyone else get the feeling that Renesmee would magically be able to get pregnant because of some 'twist' (read bul*****) Meyer was planning to pull in future? I mean Vamps aren't supposed to have children and that didn't bother her before!
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Post by Lady of Himring on Mar 30, 2014 20:41:28 GMT -8
That's exactly what I pointed out - In the Sam/Emily case they're convinced it was Emily's fault and she should have backed off so Sam didn't have to hurt her ( ) and with Quil - he's unable to date others. Surely if the imprint wasn't 'Like that' when it's a child, he wouldn't be bothered. He's supposed to see her as a little sister, but then why can't he date? And he's basically helping raise her, having an older brother/uncle figure change your relationship to a more 'mature' one after knowing you since you were small does huge damage. But the twi-hards are convinced that because he's waiting until she's older, it's not paedophilia (even though it has all the hallmarks of child grooming!!) Ugh, arguments like that make it difficult to take them seriously. But kindly point out that Emily didn't know what the hell was wrong with Sam and that by blaming her, what they are doing is excusing abuse and blaming the victim, which is low. The maiming is the least of the damage, Sam could've easily killed Emily. Case in point in New Moon, when Jacob takes Bella to meet with the pack, one of the boys is angry enough that one of Jacob's friend has to take Bella out while Jacob dukes it out in wolf form with the other guy.
Also, if the Claire/Quil is not meant to be sexual, then why the words of "monk-itude"? Some monks do vows of celibacy, which implies that Quil will not be sexually active until Claire turns 17/18 and while she'll be of legal age, the problem is still there. Quil was a care giver, family almost and it doesn't make it any less creepy or grooming by making Claire of legal age. It's also worth nothing, that Jacob himself (in New Moon or Eclipse, I don't recall where this convo takes place) says that he should go out and date other girls, to which Quil responds that he couldn't, because of, you guessed it: Claire.
And yes, Chaotic is right in that Jacob gets chills when talking about Nessie and she being grown up, sadly, I can't give you the quote as of now since I don't have Breaking Dawn with me atm.
But I commend you in fighting the good fight, stay strong.
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Post by bellegold89 on Mar 31, 2014 13:01:08 GMT -8
I have been finding this kinda fun but I can't believe I once liked the first book (I was young.)
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Post by arcanius on Mar 31, 2014 14:32:37 GMT -8
^ Worry not, many haters are previous fans.(Knowing this by having many friends - hater fans that previously praised it) You could say that transfering from liking to hating twilight is a sign that humans grow up
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Post by bellegold89 on Apr 1, 2014 10:41:34 GMT -8
^ Worry not, many haters are previous fans.(Knowing this by having many hater fans that previously praised it) You could say that transfering from liking to hating twilight is a sign that humans grow up That makes it kind of worrying considering I had my twilight-liking phase as a teen, but know women in their 30s/40s/50s who got completely obsessed with the books (One even had her hair cut like her favourite character and dressed that way all the time! I think her husband got fed-up because she suddenly got rid of all the Twilight things and cut her hair one day.)
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Post by arcanius on Apr 1, 2014 11:05:34 GMT -8
My head alrady has a scenario for this: *Phone ring* - Oh look, it's reality - HELLOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!
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Post by bellegold89 on Apr 2, 2014 6:11:45 GMT -8
LOL!
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Post by Lady of Himring on Apr 4, 2014 20:36:46 GMT -8
I have been finding this kinda fun but I can't believe I once liked the first book (I was young.) Friendly reminder that there's nothing wrong with liking stuff like Twilight, so long one doesn't blind oneself to the failings and problematic themes of it. My problem with Twilight is that it (along with the fans) take it way too seriously. And also, don't forget that Breaking Dawn turned many fans into antis after all.
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Post by bellegold89 on Apr 5, 2014 5:05:21 GMT -8
I have been finding this kinda fun but I can't believe I once liked the first book (I was young.) Friendly reminder that there's nothing wrong with liking stuff like Twilight, so long one doesn't blind oneself to the failings and problematic themes of it. My problem with Twilight is that it (along with the fans) take it way too seriously. And also, don't forget that Breaking Dawn turned many fans into antis after all.True - I'm sure I'm not the only one to have BD make me go 'eww' I also knew people who took it incredibly seriously - grown women who read the books constantly, had hair cuts like their favourite character, dressed like them, talked about them all the time, watched the films, it was hilarious - even when I liked it a bit.
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Post by candypants on Apr 6, 2014 21:53:52 GMT -8
From the get go Meyer could have said that the wolves sole reason for imprinting was not for the sake of continuing the lineage for the wolves, but to protect these specific individuals above all else because maybe long ago certain people within the tribe were completely different from the wolves and regular individuals. Maybe back in the day after the first man shifted everything wasn't so happily ever after in the aftermath of the vampire attack. When more young men started to change, not being accustomed to such anger and senses, didn't calm down but went feral. Random people within the tribe were able to calm the wolves and effectively stopping another major problem from happening to their people. The people were anchors between the men's humanity and the wolf within. Since then they protect these people not to one day have sex with them, but because of their importance to the tribe and the wolves.
I just pulled this out of my ass. This took me five minutes to think up; longer since I'm typing with minimal light to see the keys by. This has plot holes out the ass, but with more fleshing out is a better reason for imprinting than what Meyer crapped out. This 'history' isn't even any good.
I do have a question. Why is it that if there is a mystical connection mentioned in a book for the reason why a man and a woman are brought together does it involve sex?
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Post by marienomad on Apr 7, 2014 7:07:25 GMT -8
From the get go Meyer could have said that the wolves sole reason for imprinting was not for the sake of continuing the lineage for the wolves, but to protect these specific individuals above all else because maybe long ago certain people within the tribe were completely different from the wolves and regular individuals. Maybe back in the day after the first man shifted everything wasn't so happily ever after in the aftermath of the vampire attack. When more young men started to change, not being accustomed to such anger and senses, didn't calm down but went feral. Random people within the tribe were able to calm the wolves and effectively stopping another major problem from happening to their people. The people were anchors between the men's humanity and the wolf within. Since then they protect these people not to one day have sex with them, but because of their importance to the tribe and the wolves. I just pulled this out of my ass. This took me five minutes to think up; longer since I'm typing with minimal light to see the keys by. This has plot holes out the ass, but with more fleshing out is a better reason for imprinting than what Meyer crapped out. This 'history' isn't even any good. I do have a question. Why is it that if there is a mystical connection mentioned in a book for the reason why a man and a woman are brought together does it involve sex? That makes a lot of sense.
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Post by Chaotic Neutral on Apr 7, 2014 20:02:57 GMT -8
From the get go Meyer could have said that the wolves sole reason for imprinting was not for the sake of continuing the lineage for the wolves, but to protect these specific individuals above all else because maybe long ago certain people within the tribe were completely different from the wolves and regular individuals. Maybe back in the day after the first man shifted everything wasn't so happily ever after in the aftermath of the vampire attack. When more young men started to change, not being accustomed to such anger and senses, didn't calm down but went feral. Random people within the tribe were able to calm the wolves and effectively stopping another major problem from happening to their people. The people were anchors between the men's humanity and the wolf within. Since then they protect these people not to one day have sex with them, but because of their importance to the tribe and the wolves. I just pulled this out of my ass. This took me five minutes to think up; longer since I'm typing with minimal light to see the keys by. This has plot holes out the ass, but with more fleshing out is a better reason for imprinting than what Meyer crapped out. This 'history' isn't even any good. I do have a question. Why is it that if there is a mystical connection mentioned in a book for the reason why a man and a woman are brought together does it involve sex? See, THAT would have made sense! The imprints being the end all be all love, I can't get; but grounding them so they can remain human? Hey, I can't point out a serious contradiction with that. Heck, even the whole "Sam attacking Emily" bit makes sense in that regard since his grounding force was essentially refusing to do her job and he thus had nothing TO ground him from going wolf on her.
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Post by arcanius on Apr 8, 2014 7:15:25 GMT -8
^ Five minutes of rational thought was all it took to fix it all... This is just proof that Twilight really has no thought into it whatsoever
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Post by candypants on Apr 11, 2014 21:23:56 GMT -8
It's not even the fact that Emily refused to do her job either. She honestly didn't know what was going on. The tales told within her tribe are just mythology to her; embellishments of deeds done in the past, and like most legends, are a far cry from what they originally were. Maybe a few of the Tether (what I'm going to refer to them from now on) married the wolves. It would explain why in the current canon why they think that imprinting means to carry on the wolf gene.
Here's also something. This explanation doesn't excuse the wolves overall behavior. When they were out of control, they couldn't help themselves. But after gaining control there is no reason to be such huge dicks.
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Post by bellegold89 on Apr 12, 2014 5:04:22 GMT -8
It's not even the fact that Emily refused to do her job either. She honestly didn't know what was going on. The tales told within her tribe are just mythology to her; embellishments of deeds done in the past, and like most legends, are a far cry from what they originally were. Maybe a few of the Tether (what I'm going to refer to them from now on) married the wolves. It would explain why in the current canon why they think that imprinting means to carry on the wolf gene. Here's also something. This explanation doesn't excuse the wolves overall behavior. When they were out of control, they couldn't help themselves. But after gaining control there is no reason to be such huge dicks. But why should someone 'imprinting' on her immediately make looking after the 'wolves' her job - she might want to go to college or university, study or work abroad, marry someone she loves and isn't forced to love because of the 'wolf' rubbish - this is so anti-feminist. I mean the only female I remember hearing about having much education was Jacob's sister who got imprinted on and then immediately moved home. Because if she hadn't it would have been too painful for the wolf not to have her around. All her choices in life just get taken away in a flash because a stranger saw her when she was home to visit her family.
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Post by arcanius on Apr 12, 2014 5:47:13 GMT -8
Answer is simple - fuckyouitsmeyerverse, thats troo wuv because a random wolf-guy looked at her weird
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Post by candypants on Apr 12, 2014 16:12:45 GMT -8
bellegold89 - The whole imprinting thing is very sexist. But I'm just trying to make the illogical somewhat logical and I don't think I do a very good job explaining myself. You're right about the fact that the imprints have a choice about whether or not to stay and be an anchor to the wolves.
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Post by arcanius on Apr 12, 2014 16:22:06 GMT -8
^ Actually you do. I know that explaining it better than meyers is not that much of an achievment, but still - a few sentences fixing so much of the fail is pretty impressive.
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