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Post by Blue Suede Shoes on Nov 10, 2010 23:44:13 GMT -8
As you may have gathered if you've read some of my posts here, I have a particular dislike for Carlisle, so I may be biased. Thus my asking for other opinions. According to the narration, Carlisle's vampire super power is that he's particularly compassionate. But... is there any actual evidence of this in his actions that we see in the series? I can't think of anything he actually followed through with that didn't directly benefit himself, his own family, or Bella. Being nice to your family and your friends is just kind of expected, not exactly above and beyond morally. I guess, yeah, he's a doctor too, but it's not like he works for free so I'm not sure why he'd get extra props for actually doing his job, or why he would be seen as superior in compassion to everyday human doctors who do the same work. He doesn't eat humans, and encourages other vampires in his group not to do so, but from what we see the primary reason he does so is to avoid detection, rather than any particular concern for the humans. He doesn't care if vampires outside the family eat humans, and even offers them material assistance as long as they murder people only outside of Carlisle's turf. And then there's Bree Tanner, who the Cullens take responsibility for and then allow to be tortured and killed right in front of them with no attempt to intervene. Nice work, "Dad." Now, I'm fully aware the Volturi probably would have killed the Cullens in an outright fight. However, wouldn't a person with actual compassion be willing to sacrifice to try to help instead of preserving their own lives over that of a confused teen? Their promise to help Bree seems pretty darn conditional after all. I seriously hate this guy. If he was portrayed as an amoral, grey, or ambiguous character, I wouldn't hate him because that's a reasonable way a vampire might act. Meyer insisting that he's actually "compassionate," though, is what turns my stomach, because he acts so selfishly as far as I can tell. So am I wrong? Is he showing compassion in some meaningful way that I'm just not seeing?
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flamingninja7
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Post by flamingninja7 on Nov 10, 2010 23:47:15 GMT -8
May I ask how showing some goddamn empathy once in a while is considered a superpower?
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Post by Blue Suede Shoes on Nov 10, 2010 23:50:08 GMT -8
May I ask how showing some goddamn empathy once in a while is considered a superpower? You may, but you'd have to ask Stephanie Meyer, not me, because she was the one who said Carlisle's personal heightened vampire trait was compassion, and I have no clue. If she gives you a sensible answer, I'd be interested to hear.
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Catalpa
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A full minute of stunned silence means "My God, what did you do?" not "Please continue."[Mo0:0]
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Post by Catalpa on Nov 11, 2010 7:42:24 GMT -8
Carlisle is supposed to be seen as compassionate when he saves the lives of Edward, Rosalie and Esme. At least according to Smeyer. But really, what he's doing us is showing that he has a God complex. It gives him a rush to be able to dictate who lives and who dies. That's also why he became a doctor, to feed that feeling.
Heck, even his 'vegetarianism' is just a way to feed his holier-than-thou ego. He doesn't care about human life, but once again, he feels powerful that he's able to decide whether the people in his territory can live or die. It has the added bonus of making him seem more moral and good than the rest of the vampires too.
Basically, I'd say Carlisle's superpower is a giant ego, not compassion.
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Post by Elentari on Nov 11, 2010 8:42:25 GMT -8
So, Carlisle was a son of a vicar during his life and according to Meyer, led these persecutions to destroy supernatural beings. Apparently he took a lot of his beliefs of that time with him when he became a pixie himself, but it seems he just abandoned all beliefs about vampires being evil creatures that need to be destroyed (he even tried to kill himself in several ways, but why he didn't try to burn himself while it was supposed to be, according to Meyer, the primary way of his little gang to kill people, is unclear to me). He knows how hard it is (or is supposed to be) to reject the bloodlust. Also he knows that there are others of his kind who do actually kill people. Still, he goes and turns helpless, innocent people just because he is lonely, and then expects them to act like he himself does. Carlisle risks the chance that the people he turns are not able to control themselves and end up murdering God knows how many people.
What does he know about the people he changes? Nothing. What if Esme or Wardo were highly religious people who did not want to become this evil monster, doomed to hell? He is indirectly responsible for countless deaths, as he created Ed, who then went on murdering hundreds of people right during the depression. Then he turns this poor woman who only wanted to die and takes that away from her, making her indestructible, eternal housewife. And what about Rosalie? Carlisle just decided that Ed needs a girl and tried to force this innocent woman to be Mr Disckostick's wife. He asked neither of them if they wanted to be together. Ed and Rosalie both hate what they are, yet they never call Carlisle out for what he did.
Carlisle is supposed to be oh so compassionate, but when ever does he do something out of pure compassion? He turns dying people just for his own amusement. As it was said before, he surely does not work as doctor for free. He surrounds himself and his family with luxury, never donating any of that wealth, like building schools, hospitals and wells for those who need. He does not use his knowledge or wealth for research to find cure for diseases. Yet again Meyer fails in showing, not telling.
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Post by Blue Suede Shoes on Nov 11, 2010 12:02:28 GMT -8
Carlisle is supposed to be seen as compassionate when he saves the lives of Edward, Rosalie and Esme. At least according to Smeyer. But really, what he's doing us is showing that he has a God complex. It gives him a rush to be able to dictate who lives and who dies. That's also why he became a doctor, to feed that feeling. Yeah, I agree about the God complex. Also, the text outright tells us that all those people were "saved" for his own purposes, with the intention of forming his family because he was lonely or felt a role was lacking in his group. The insanity of that aside, since I think Elentari already explained it well, I don't think it really counts as compassion if the main person benefiting is yourself and the other person just receives a (rather questionable) benefit also as an aside. The only turning I could actually see as even possibly genuinely compassionate is Emmet's... but that was instigated by Rosalie, not Carlisle, who was only involved because she asked him to do it. Even as a doctor, we don't really see Carlisle go beyond the bare minimum of actually doing his job, and we usually see him applying his professional skills to his own friends or useful allies. (It's possible he does go beyond for his human patients and we don't see it, but if it's not actually in the text it doesn't count toward a characterization.) The only person we see Carlisle "helping" when it isn't either something that will directly benefit himself or a requirement of his job, is Bree Tanner. And I put "help" in sarcasm quotes because things ended with her dead and he didn't even try to prevent that, in spite of having offered her the family's protection. It seems like Carlisle is "compassionate" only when he gets something out of it and it's a low risk to himself. That's actually kind of the opposite of compassion...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2010 18:11:27 GMT -8
Carlisle is NOT compassionate. Whoopdee-friggin-do, he's a doctor. Hundreds of people go into that profesion, but it's not seen as "good, honest, work" is it? When was the last time you brought home your new boyfriend who was studying to be a doctor, and your parents said "oh, a doctor aye? You must be so compassionate." They didn't. Being a doctor is seen as a respectable, but mostly because it brings in lots of money. In fact, go watch some shows and moviesabout hospitals. I garantee there will be one very formal, possibly even dickish guy there. That's because a lot of people percive some doctors to becoming indifferent after a while. We never see Carlisle work, so we can't be sure if he's like that or not. Him turning Esme, Rosalie, and Edward into vamps was NOT compassionate. He didn't ask them if they wanted it, he just did it and as like "I saved ur life, LOL." Rosalie actually makes it very clear she hates this existience, and would trade even her fucking husband in for a normal human life. In fact, it makes him seem as if he's mentally unstable resentful of his situation; he's stuck as a sparkly freak, so he'll drag other people down too and surround himiself with them in an attempt to pretend he's happy. Carlisle is a "vegetarian"...so? He's not really one, he just isn't a cannible. He drinks blood instead of eating meat, but he still eats from animals. Anyway, being a vegetarian isn't something that automatically makes you compassionate. PETA are vegetarians and they're the biggest group of dicks next the WBC you'll ever meet. Unless he is actively going out and stopping other vampires from eating humans, I don't see how he's compassionate to them. He and his family just turn a blind eye. (he even tried to kill himself in several ways, but why he didn't try to burn himself while it was supposed to be, according to Meyer, the primary way of his little gang to kill people, is unclear to me). Two words; survival instincts. You've probably been in the situation of standing next to a road, or waiting for a train. And you think "I could run out in front of those cars" or "I could jump on the tracks". But you don't. You don't even take a step, because you're too scared to do it. That's your body screaming WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU DOING YOU BASTARD, YOU ARE GOING TO DIE IF YOU DO THAT, DYING IS BAD! Carlisle may have attempted to light himself on fire, and just couldn't do it. Can you really blame him? That would have been painful and slow.
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Post by Blue Suede Shoes on Nov 11, 2010 22:27:56 GMT -8
Whoopdee-friggin-do, he's a doctor. Hundreds of people go into that profesion, but it's not seen as "good, honest, work" is it? When was the last time you brought home your new boyfriend who was studying to be a doctor, and your parents said "oh, a doctor aye? You must be so compassionate." They didn't. Being a doctor is seen as a respectable, but mostly because it brings in lots of money. In fact, go watch some shows and moviesabout hospitals. I garantee there will be one very formal, possibly even dickish guy there. That's because a lot of people percive some doctors to becoming indifferent after a while. We never see Carlisle work, so we can't be sure if he's like that or not. Indeed. Just stating that he's a doctor by profession doesn't mean he's automatically more compassionate than someone with a different job. I've been treated by compassionate doctors, but I've also been treated by very negligent doctors. My car was repaired by an exceptionally compassionate mechanic. My boyfriend is an extremely compassionate carpenter. Compassion is the trait of the person, not the profession. Meyer seemed to think making Carlisle a doctor was enough, but that isn't sufficient to be characterization. Yeah, he doesn't stop them. He actually helps them out and tells them to just take it where it won't draw attention to his family. Now, I don't normally object to the characterization of a vampire acting selfishly. A creature who lives on the blood of others is kind of selfish by necessity. What annoys me about Carlisle is that all these claims are made in the book about his good nature but we see him only acting the opposite. The way Meyer talks him up is what makes me despise him so much.
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Post by Elentari on Nov 12, 2010 7:14:39 GMT -8
(he even tried to kill himself in several ways, but why he didn't try to burn himself while it was supposed to be, according to Meyer, the primary way of his little gang to kill people, is unclear to me). Two words; survival instincts. You've probably been in the situation of standing next to a road, or waiting for a train. And you think "I could run out in front of those cars" or "I could jump on the tracks". But you don't. You don't even take a step, because you're too scared to do it. That's your body screaming WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU DOING YOU BASTARD, YOU ARE GOING TO DIE IF YOU DO THAT, DYING IS BAD! Carlisle may have attempted to light himself on fire, and just couldn't do it. Can you really blame him? That would have been painful and slow. Yeah, but if he truly is so good and compassionate and stuff, wouldn't he rather try and kill himself than continue living and risk the chance that he might end up killing someone one day? That he might eventually become crazy with the bloodlust and not being able to act out his natural instincts? From what I remember, the guy was pretty desperate about getting killed.
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Post by Blue Suede Shoes on Nov 12, 2010 12:59:33 GMT -8
It's certainly possible to commit suicide by setting yourself on fire. People have, due to mental illness or as political protest.
I don't want to get too graphic as to how it works, but the general concept is making sure that by the time your natural survival instincts kick in... and they will... it's too late for it to matter. (Usually lots of accelerant is involved.)
If the vampire has to be beheaded before being burned, it becomes more complicated. However, when you consider the time period when Carlisle was first turned, I think all he'd have to do is be a little more obvious about being a vampire and an angry mob would have willingly obliged him.
I think the whole thing was just Carlisle's ego, desiring to be seen as better than others because he was oh-so-tortured about what he is rather than those other vampires who just accepted it and got on with it.
I wouldn't really call it compassion even if it was sincere, actually, since the primary focus was always himself and his own nature.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2010 19:52:24 GMT -8
If the vampire has to be beheaded before being burned, it becomes more complicated. However, when you consider the time period when Carlisle was first turned, I think all he'd have to do is be a little more obvious about being a vampire and an angry mob would have willingly obliged him. I love the angry mob part, because that is so completly true. The term Vegetarian bugs me also, you cant consider wild animals not meat, you cant you would think vampires hundreds of years old would know this. The doctor thing I also agree with, In fact many doctors are complete A**hats. Thinking they know everything
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Post by Lady Phoenix on Nov 12, 2010 19:59:06 GMT -8
If the vampire has to be beheaded before being burned, it becomes more complicated. However, when you consider the time period when Carlisle was first turned, I think all he'd have to do is be a little more obvious about being a vampire and an angry mob would have willingly obliged him. I love the angry mob part, because that is so completly true. The term Vegetarian bugs me also, you cant consider wild animals not meat, you cant you would think vampires hundreds of years old would know this. The meat from wild animals is usually classified as "Game Meat"
So, yeah, Carlisle is kinda a grade-A idiot
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Catalpa
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A full minute of stunned silence means "My God, what did you do?" not "Please continue."[Mo0:0]
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Post by Catalpa on Nov 12, 2010 20:15:56 GMT -8
Just putting it out there- we only have Carlisle's word that he actually tried to kill himself. That he was actually tormented by being given basically unstoppable power and immortality. Given the context for all Carlisle's selfish, egotistical actions we've been shown so far, I'd say that's unlikely.
I'm betting more on the fact that he's pulling stuff out of his ass to sound all tormented and heroic. Might help explain all the holes in his story too.
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Post by Lady Phoenix on Nov 12, 2010 20:20:19 GMT -8
Just putting it out there- we only have Carlisle's word that he actually tried to kill himself. That he was actually tormented by being given basically unstoppable power and immortality. Given the context for all Carlisle's selfish, egotistical actions we've been shown so far, I'd say that's unlikely. I'm betting more on the fact that he's pulling stuff out of his ass to sound all tormented and heroic. Might help explain all the holes in his story too. Maybe he's a relative of that Lockhart from the 2nd Harry Potter book. Carlisle just stole the stories of ranom people he met and then used a memory charm on them so they don't call out his bullshit
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Post by vampirekites on Nov 12, 2010 20:25:47 GMT -8
Carlisle and Esme's "powers" suck ass. It's like having everyone in the Griffin family turn into whatever they want, have fire powers, super speed, a super genius brain and then all Meg gets is the ability to grow her nails kind of long. Wah-wah.
As for his "compassion", Maura is right, it's just another way off him making sure he's better than other vampires. He's risking human's lives by having the clan almost starve themselves until the next hunt, all while being surrounded by their natural food source. I mean, talk about having a monumental brain fart when coming up with that idea.
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limelightqueen
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Post by limelightqueen on Nov 13, 2010 15:08:20 GMT -8
Plus, didn't he create Edward because he was like bored and lonely? Wow, way to doom someone to a miserable non-existence because you couldn't get laid. And Esme? She tried to commit suicide and then you thought she was hot so you decided that she would really appreciate it if instead of ending her life she becomes immortal and has to live with her pain forever unless she gets her head ripped off and her body parts burned? Nice, real compassionate there.
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Post by vampirekites on Nov 13, 2010 16:30:44 GMT -8
I think it's a case of "good intentions". Usually, they mean well, but it still is a crap thing to do. He really has no right choosing these people's fates for them. I don't think one person, save for Bella, actually wanted to be a vampire. But like others said, you have to deal with the cards you're given, and you can either complain for eternity about it or just enjoy your existence. Then again, Carlisle is practically forcing them to stay together and make them go to high school forever, so I guess that's be a big reason to be pissy for eternity.
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Post by Vividus on Nov 14, 2010 15:15:17 GMT -8
I think it's a case of "good intentions". Usually, they mean well, but it still is a crap thing to do. He really has no right choosing these people's fates for them. I don't think one person, save for Bella, actually wanted to be a vampire. But like others said, you have to deal with the cards you're given, and you can either complain for eternity about it or just enjoy your existence. Then again, Carlisle is practically forcing them to stay together and make them go to high school forever, so I guess that's be a big reason to be pissy for eternity. Makes you almost feel bad for Edward. No wonder he spends so much time bitching. But anyways... Wasn't Carlisle's power his ability to easily resist human blood or something, so he won't eat them? And I think I remember that when Tyler and Bella were in the hospital, wasn't he checking on Bella more than Tyler? -eyeroll- Although admittedly, I don't think either of them were really hurt. Not to mention, why is there a hospital so close to an itty bitty town, anyways? Wouldn't it be closer to a larger city or something?
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Post by Blue Suede Shoes on Nov 14, 2010 15:33:31 GMT -8
But anyways... Wasn't Carlisle's power his ability to easily resist human blood or something, so he won't eat them? That's the power he actually demonstrates in the text. I think his power should be self-control. However, during the infodump chapter (driving back from the meadow scene) Edward states that in fact Carlisle's vampire power is compassion and how he's the most compassionate person ever and blah blah blah. I'll try to dig up my copy of the book to get an exact quote, but knowing what scene it's in, it shouldn't be hard to find it for yourself too. Yes. It's quite glaring. Neither has life-threatening injuries, but Tyler is pretty banged up, and Bella seems to be fine. I think the justification is supposed to be that they think Bella hit her head... but there's really no less chance Tyler had a head injury too, so that logic doesn't really hold up. It would also make sense if a different doctor was assigned to Tyler so Carlisle would have no reason to check on him... but he does check, just very belatedly and seeming like an afterthought. It seems like favouritism for sure, and not very medically ethical to put personal issues before patient needs. Actually there is a community hospital in Forks. (I know this only from googling; I have never been to Forks.) www.forkshospital.org/It's pretty common for a small hospital to serve multiple communities in rural areas in the United States and Canada. Most people don't know that, though, and I suspect it was more of a lucky guess on Meyer's part than any real knowledge or research.
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Post by Vividus on Nov 14, 2010 15:44:42 GMT -8
That's the power he actually demonstrates in the text. I think his power should be self-control. However, during the infodump chapter (driving back from the meadow scene) Edward states that in fact Carlisle's vampire power is compassion and how he's the most compassionate person ever and blah blah blah. I'll try to dig up my copy of the book to get an exact quote, but knowing what scene it's in, it shouldn't be hard to find it for yourself too. Freakin'... If SMeyer had just said that his power was self-control, she'd be okay! Well obviously Carlisle is supahspeshul and the bestest doctor in the area, so no duh of course he'd check on people WITHOUT INJURIES. Oh, okay. I live in a big city, so I don't really know this at all. Thanks.
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Sassley
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Post by Sassley on Nov 15, 2010 6:37:20 GMT -8
I always wondered about this. I remember watching Interview With The Vampire. Even Lestat had more compassion than Carlisle. He ALWAYS, ALWAYS gave people a choice (well, okay, not with Claudia, but she was a child and let's face it, he was SUPPOSED to be evil). Yeah, for the most part he was a manipulative bastard, biting people before giving them the choice, but there were times when he would come upon someone getting the life beat out of them (Louis) and give them an option.
Carlisle didn't give options. He changed Edward, Esme and Rosalie when they weren't even conscious. SMeyer wrote that Edward's mother begged him to save her son, but she meant CURE him...not make him into a vampire! He just couldn't live alone, and he had to have a whole bunch of equally emo sparklepires to make him feel better about his predicament.
Just because Carlisle is a doctor doesn't make him compassionate. If he were truly compassionate, he would have defended Bree Tanner. Instead he handed her over to the Volturi. That was a totally pointless moment in the plot - all because SMeyer didn't want to have a REAL fight.
(Sidenote: Her books are filled with completely unnecessary violence, and nobody of any positive consequence dies.)
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limelightqueen
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Post by limelightqueen on Nov 15, 2010 15:09:52 GMT -8
I can't help but laugh at the idea that doctor=compassionate. Both of my parents are doctors and they have both had coworkers that will seriously make you doubt that claim.
But seriously, hasn't Meyer ever heard of House?
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Post by Blue Suede Shoes on Nov 15, 2010 15:48:31 GMT -8
Just because Carlisle is a doctor doesn't make him compassionate. If he were truly compassionate, he would have defended Bree Tanner. Instead he handed her over to the Volturi. That was a totally pointless moment in the plot - all because SMeyer didn't want to have a REAL fight. Thank you for sharing my disgust with this scene! That was the moment that turned me from a non-fan into a hater. How can the Cullens still be portrayed as good people after letting the poor kid die and doing nothing to try to help? They might have died if they tried, yes. They were too cowardly to risk their immortal necks. People act like that, but "heroes" don't. Compassionate people don't. Any possible argument that Carlisle is compassionate falls flat for me after he and the others stepped aside and let a scared teen who was supposed to be under their protection die. No amount of angsting over Bella Swan can undo that another girl is dead and Carlisle and his family did nothing! *hates Carlisle*
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Post by Lady Phoenix on Nov 15, 2010 15:55:40 GMT -8
Carlisle is the OPPOSITE of compassionate.
He's selfish. He only decides on who should live: 1. Esme because he likes her 2. Edward to be a son-figure 3. Rosalie to be Edward's mate
He never donates any of his vast fortune to, say, CHARITIES. He doesn't build hospitals and schools in 3rd world countries. All he does is buy extravagant things and a fucking island.
He never saved anyone who truly needed help (Bree) because he didn't want to cause trouble.
So, really, all his compassion is absolute BULLOCKS.
And being a doctor =/= compassion. It's just a job, not a special status or trait.
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Post by Lady of Himring on Nov 16, 2010 19:07:21 GMT -8
Carlisle is supposed to be seen as compassionate when he saves the lives of Edward, Rosalie and Esme. At least according to Smeyer. But really, what he's doing us is showing that he has a God complex. It gives him a rush to be able to dictate who lives and who dies. That's also why he became a doctor, to feed that feeling. ^I agree. Turning Esme because he remembered her. Felt Rosalie was a waste if she died (regardless that she asked him to let her die), and turned Ed at his mother's request. Dude, the effing hell?
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limelightqueen
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Post by limelightqueen on Nov 16, 2010 19:49:25 GMT -8
And lets not forget him and the rest of the Cullens lending out their cars to the other vamps so they could eat people. Because murder and cannibalism is okay so long as they are anonymous strangers and (more importantly) Carlisle and his "coven" can't be held responsible for their deaths. Yeah, there's some serious compassion there.
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Post by Blue Suede Shoes on Nov 17, 2010 14:16:11 GMT -8
I forgot about the cars thing. Sheesh.
Every human who dies as a result is a person with just as much value as Bella. The hypocrisy is too much for me. "Dad" Cullen is fine with this. He's fine with their deaths. He's fine with their pain and fear.
I think Carlisle shows more thinly-veiled sadism than compassion, honestly. Which again, is logical for a vampire... except it completely goes against everything Meyer claims about him!
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Post by reniefuwa on Nov 17, 2010 21:23:43 GMT -8
Odd how they're completely characteristic of well-done vampire characters, but they're supposed to be completely the opposite. Way to go Meyer, you hack!
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Post by smithkakarot on Nov 18, 2010 18:53:12 GMT -8
True Neutral at best.
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blenderbender
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Post by blenderbender on Nov 21, 2010 17:06:55 GMT -8
The Bree scene reminds me of a Star Wars story I have planned out. Serra Keto and Anakin Skywalker have just sworn to protect a group of children they don't know (unbeknownst to them, they are a group of Mandolorian cadets). Then the people hunting the kids ambush them and try to take Ahsoka (Anakin's Padawan) hostage. Do they let the people attack the kids? Nope. They curbstomp them and let them know it is a very bad idea to threaten anybody a Skywalker gives a spit about.
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