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Post by reniefuwa on Jan 9, 2011 9:19:42 GMT -8
We wouldn't even have a problem with the actions of any of the Cullens if we weren't expected to think that they are the paragons of goodness and righteousness. If the general attitude was like, "they're vampires, creatures of darkness, and they do this evil, awful stuff" That would be pretty cool and interesting. But it's exactly the opposite, so we can't agree, and we can't take it seriously.
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Post by Blue Suede Shoes on Jan 9, 2011 9:28:57 GMT -8
We wouldn't even have a problem with the actions of any of the Cullens if we weren't expected to think that they are the paragons of goodness and righteousness. If the general attitude was like, "they're vampires, creatures of darkness, and they do this evil, awful stuff" That would be pretty cool and interesting. But it's exactly the opposite, so we can't agree, and we can't take it seriously. Yes! Exactly! In stories where vampires are monsters, you expect them to act like monsters. I wouldn't be complaining, in that case, if they did something immoral, because it's the nature of the character. In stories where the characters are supposed to be heroes, I expect a lot better than Carlisle and the other Cullens.
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Post by TheAngel'sWings on Jan 9, 2011 9:53:10 GMT -8
Couple of points I'd like to raise, for which I'll probably get shot. 1)The island doesn't necessarily belong to Brazil. The UK owns the Falklands, and those are just off the coast of Argentina. 2) Also in the UK, GPs can earn more than a 'specialty' doctor: The average GP salary falls somewhere between £53,781 to £81,158 per year, the Specialist's average salary is between £36,807 and £70,126. The consultants are the really rich ones, they earn between £74,504 and £100,446. [source: www.nhscareers.nhs.uk/details/Default.aspx?Id=553 ] I'm aware this data doesn't apply to America, but it's an interesting side-note. As for Carlisle's compassion...well, this thread has answered that for me, and far better than I could.
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Post by Elentari on Jan 9, 2011 11:17:45 GMT -8
We wouldn't even have a problem with the actions of any of the Cullens if we weren't expected to think that they are the paragons of goodness and righteousness. If the general attitude was like, "they're vampires, creatures of darkness, and they do this evil, awful stuff" That would be pretty cool and interesting. But it's exactly the opposite, so we can't agree, and we can't take it seriously. Yes! Exactly! In stories where vampires are monsters, you expect them to act like monsters. I wouldn't be complaining, in that case, if they did something immoral, because it's the nature of the character. In stories where the characters are supposed to be heroes, I expect a lot better than Carlisle and the other Cullens. Especially when this guy is supposed to be so good and compassionate that there is no equal to him in all history. Apparently Meyer forgot about it right after writing that statement.
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limelightqueen
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Post by limelightqueen on Jan 9, 2011 11:37:03 GMT -8
2) Also in the UK, GPs can earn more than a 'specialty' doctor: The average GP salary falls somewhere between £53,781 to £81,158 per year, the Specialist's average salary is between £36,807 and £70,126. The consultants are the really rich ones, they earn between £74,504 and £100,446. [source: www.nhscareers.nhs.uk/details/Default.aspx?Id=553 ] I'm aware this data doesn't apply to America, but it's an interesting side-note Let's say Carlisle earns 70,000 pounds a year- a middle ground in your GP, that goes to just over 100,000 a year. And yes, for most people that is A LOT of money. But let's remember that Carlisle supposedly has five kids, and therefore five college tuitions to pay. College costs a lot, especially considering they go to Ivies. As of 2010 tuition at Dartmouth was over 38,000 a year. Adding in living expenses such as food, mortgages for his huge house, utilities for his huge house, Alice's shopping habit, their random trips to Paris on sunny days (despite the fact that it takes about 10 and a half hours to get from Olympia to Paris) and those crazy expensive cars they have, the IRS, FBI and Interpol would all be keeping extremely close tabs on him. And that doesn't include buying a freaking island. Out of curiosity I checked that one out. It cost about over 1.5 million dollars to buy a 6 acre island off the coast of Rio.
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Post by TheAngel'sWings on Jan 11, 2011 10:17:30 GMT -8
^I wasn't intending to imply that that answered the question of why/how he had so much money, just that GPs aren't paid less than other doctors in every case.
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limelightqueen
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Post by limelightqueen on Jan 11, 2011 11:46:23 GMT -8
^ I know, sorry if that sounded overly confrontational. I was just elaborating on the fact that unless he was the number 1 plastic surgeon in Hollywood or something the idea of him having a private island would be ridiculous. And even then only if he was childless and lived in a matchbox of an apartment.
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Post by kendobunny on Jan 13, 2011 21:22:51 GMT -8
I always assumed he got his pots and pots of money from dealing antiques. That would make the most sense, after all. He was turned in the mid-1650's, presumably, and once he hooked up with the Volturi, he was apparently surrounded by the finer things in life. An original Magnasco currently brings in around 350,000 euro, for example. Imagine if he had gotten his hands on a First Folio of Shakespeare or a Gutenberg Bible - no way he wouldn't have realized how much those things would have been worth. Or if after hooking up with Alice, he got her to foresee who would really be making a splash in the future art world, and had bought up early Picasso and Matisse before they became priceless?
The idea of him selling fabulous works of art privately makes way more sense than the stupid 'Alice can foresee stock prices, despite the fact that her visions are too temporary and fragmented to risk on an enterprise that can collapse in a moment!'
As for superheroes who keep themselves apart, I honestly think Frank Herbert did it best - Paul and Leto II were both outrageously superpowered, and did interfere in humanity in a way that could cast them as villains, but they were both working to save humanity from a far worse fate. Being unable to interfere makes for a more compelling story of superpowers than being unwilling.
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Post by Blue Suede Shoes on Feb 9, 2011 0:23:22 GMT -8
I'm puzzled about something Edward said about Carlisle:
"But Carlisle has always been the most humane, the most compassionate of us... I don't think you could find his equal throughout all of history."
Do you take that to mean his equal amongst vampires? If so, I guess it's possible. If all the vampires are jerks, I guess the least violent is techically the kindest of them, even if he is still a jerk.
Or does Edward mean compared humans, too? Because of so... WTF? What would possibly back up such a grandiose claim? Even if you don't think Carlisle is actually evil (which I do,) how could someone see him as the best person ever? I mean surely even Edward can see he's no Mother Teresa or Dietrich Bonhoeffer or Martin Luther King, regardless of his affection for the guy?
So... what do we think? Is it because no other vampire gives Carlisle any possible competition for the title so he can just skate by doing whatever and ignoring the violence happening around him, or is Edward just delusional?
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Post by fdragon010 on Feb 9, 2011 8:39:31 GMT -8
^Eddie's probably refering to other vampires, and in this he's probably right. Most of the vampires including Eddie himself are loathsome people. Either they're just amoral or total monsters. Carlisle isn't a good man, but he at least makes a mild attempt. He acts more human then the others, but when you set him up beside normal humans he's not that special. Carlisle just doesn't care about humans, but he's not activally bad.
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Post by Chaotic Neutral on Feb 9, 2011 9:40:47 GMT -8
^I hate to disagree, but this IS Meyer we're talking about, and her anti-human sentiment is not only blatant in her interviews, but seeped into just about every part of her writing as well. I have little doubt that Wardo was referring to humans as well.
Because he's a mind reader, after all, and totally knows everything about everyone.
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WolfGod
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Post by WolfGod on Feb 9, 2011 10:07:08 GMT -8
Don't forget the fact that she has made it abundantly clear in every FAQ, expose, and interview that she believes the Cullens are so fucking saintly that Jesus himself wouldn't have shit on them. The possibility that she was saying Carlisle is the most super-good-special-awesome dude ever not just in comparison to vampires but humans as well is... well, pretty fucking likely.
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Post by fdragon010 on Feb 9, 2011 10:25:39 GMT -8
Well, that is true. Meyer is delusional, and she woudl think that Carlisle, the most apathatic thing in the history of the world, is some sort of saint. That doesn't change the fact that what I said is true, even if Eddy didn't mean it. Carlisle is probably the most human of the vampires, but that doesn't make him humane. He's an example of one of the worst kinds of humans, the kind that feels pity but doesn't act upon it when it really counts.
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Post by vampirekites on Feb 9, 2011 11:10:34 GMT -8
I'm sure as pie SMeyer meant he was the kindest over everyone, including humans. That in itself is a loaded comment since Edward probably hasn't encountered everyone in he world throughout history. Just because he knows the mundane, everyday thoughts people have doesn't mean he knows everything about them. Not only that, the Cullens make it abundantly clear that they want nothing to do with humans, so interacting with them constantly doesn't happen. It's just Smeyer trying to make her characters the bestest, most awesomest to have ever been created in literature. She has to make them so grandiose to make up for the fact that her story is dull and unoriginal.
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Post by Chaotic Neutral on Feb 9, 2011 11:49:49 GMT -8
^And that her characters lack depth, personality, and any kind of positive qualities.
Yeah, they're beautiful, but any kindness they show is really contemptuous at best.
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Post by vampirekites on Feb 9, 2011 12:06:35 GMT -8
She merely just TELLS us Carlisle is the most compassionate being ever, but rarely do we see this in the books. Yeah, he can handle blood and be a small town doctor, big effing deal. He obviously doesn't give two shits about other people that aren't in Forks when he lent his car to the other vampires to hunt. He also doesn't care about Bree Tanner, or the others who were turned unwillingly because of Victoria. What, does he only show compassion for those turned by HIM? Yeah, this whole book is a joke and anyone who can't see this is dumb as bricks.
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limelightqueen
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Post by limelightqueen on Feb 9, 2011 14:04:10 GMT -8
^Don't forget why he changed Edward in the first place. Because he was lonely. And Edward hated his existence until Bella came along and yet he kept doing it!
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Post by Lady of Himring on Feb 9, 2011 17:41:13 GMT -8
^Let's add that he turned Esme because he remembered her after meeting her when she was 16 or something. And boy don't get me started on the turning of Rosalie.
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Post by Blue Suede Shoes on Feb 9, 2011 17:52:37 GMT -8
Yeah.
It seems like Carlisle's decisions about who to turn (and from a certain standpoint who to save) are based primarily on how they look. As far as I have seen there is not one explanation of a turning that doesn't mention the appearance of the person as the main factor. That includes Edward's turning when Carlisle narrates it in New Moon, which is creepy.
It's certainly not based on the person's goodness, or even their level of need. It's just based on whether they're pretty enough for the family.
Regarding Carlisle's compassion, I guess it is indeed true that in the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. None of the other vampires seem any better, but... ugh.
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WolfGod
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Post by WolfGod on Feb 9, 2011 22:29:44 GMT -8
It's just Smeyer trying to make her characters the bestest, most awesomest to have ever been created in literature. She has to make them so grandiose to make up for the fact that her story is dull and unoriginal. I think it's more a case of her obsession with hyberbole. Like every other hack, she tries to make the story interesting not through subtlety, restraint, subtext, and clever twists on old concepts, but by making everything superlative. Just look at her answers to explaining vampire biology. Everything is so fucking hyperbolic it makes you sick. It reminds one of little kids drawing their own Godzilla style monsters and then arguing over whose is the most powerful.
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Post by vampirekites on Feb 9, 2011 23:13:08 GMT -8
It's just Smeyer trying to make her characters the bestest, most awesomest to have ever been created in literature. She has to make them so grandiose to make up for the fact that her story is dull and unoriginal. I think it's more a case of her obsession with hyberbole. Like every other hack, she tries to make the story interesting not through subtlety, restraint, subtext, and clever twists on old concepts, but by making everything superlative. Just look at her answers to explaining vampire biology. Everything is so fucking hyperbolic it makes you sick. It reminds one of little kids drawing their own Godzilla style monsters and then arguing over whose is the most powerful. Well, she probably doesn't see her story as dull or unoriginal, so you are right on her hyperbole obsession. You can tell these books are from an amateur because they follow the same formula as a lot of fan fiction. Over the top scenarios, Sue characters, grandiose character descriptions. I don't even think she gets subtly or subtext, just takes whatever she reads at face value and therefore applies them to her own story.
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Post by Lady Phoenix on Feb 9, 2011 23:26:55 GMT -8
Oh yeah, she claims Carlisle is compassionate because he is a doctor.
I know I don't wach the show, but refer to this guy from now on when you're expecting every doctor to be a saint:
A doctor is an occupation, not a character trait. There are people who are doctors who simply dotheir stuff for money -- and their usually halfassed douchbags.
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limelightqueen
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Post by limelightqueen on Feb 10, 2011 11:21:28 GMT -8
^Hell to the yes. I practically grew up in my parents' hospitals and I have seen so many doctors who don't give a shit about their patients. Hell, I've had a therapist who didn't give a shit about me and clearly just cared about his paycheck.
A lot of people become doctors because being a doctor is impressive and if you are good at it you will get money and if you are really good at it you will get prestige. When you hear that someone is a doctor you tend to respect them more, think they are smart or at least smarter than yourself, who is not a doctor. There is a reason why my mother practically swooned when she found out I was dating a premed. And many people become doctors because that's what is expected of them, either because everyone in their family is a doctor or because they are great at math and science and that's what people who are great at math and science become after college. That or another area of science.
But, to be fair, I don't think Meyer said Carlisle is compassionate because he's a doctor, I think she said he was a doctor because he's compassionate. Which is fair. Many people become doctors because they want to help people.
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Post by vampirekites on Feb 10, 2011 13:13:19 GMT -8
Which goes back to my inital comment on how only SMeyer's characters are the best characters ever created. and isn't it funny that the Cullens just HAPPEN to have the most kindest, compassionate person (Carlisle), the most loving mother (Esme), the most beautiful woman (Rosalie) and the most beautiful, kindest...well, check this out: Yeah...anyway, it's funny how all of the best vampires, nay, the best living beings, just happen to be in one group and happen to know Bella Swan.
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Post by fdragon010 on Feb 11, 2011 8:01:27 GMT -8
^Yeah, Edward is not good or strong. He's an arrogant jerk with delusions of gradure. Just like Carlile is a apathitc waste of space that only helps when he feels like it.
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Post by Elentari on Feb 11, 2011 9:48:21 GMT -8
Which goes back to my inital comment on how only SMeyer's characters are the best characters ever created. and isn't it funny that the Cullens just HAPPEN to have the most kindest, compassionate person (Carlisle), the most loving mother (Esme), the most beautiful woman (Rosalie) and the most beautiful, kindest...well, check this out: Yeah...anyway, it's funny how all of the best vampires, nay, the best living beings, just happen to be in one group and happen to know Bella Swan. Apparently Carlisle just forgot all about how Ed killed hundreds of people just because he didn't like animal blood. Carlisle is one delusional guy, thinking Edward some epitome of goodness: stalking girls, despising just about everyone and wanting to kill innocent boys just for talking to said girl surely aren't qualities of a good man.
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Post by marienomad on Feb 16, 2014 17:34:49 GMT -8
EDIT: Also, I wonder what kind of rules there are to buying your own island, surely people would wonder how he earned that amount of money as a doctor. That's been bugging me lately. If he's a general practitioner, he wouldn't actually make that much money. It's the specialists like cardiologists, anesthesiologists, and brain surgeons that make the big money. Okay, show of hands: how many of you think this was another of Meyer's research failures and she just assumed all doctors are rich? You know, Carlisle as a compassionate vampire would be an interesting story if handled correctly:
"In 2007, in the small nation of Litak, anti-government troops released nerve gas on hospitals and weaponized smallpox in other areas, causing the nation to collapse into a poisonous disease ridden wasteland. Outside of government/corporation enclaves, there is no law, no medical care, and no compassion. A man's life is worth less than a can of dog food.
"It's into this environment that Carlisle Cullen, doctor, surgical specialist, innovator, journeys. Without body guards he travels into the land to heal the sick and repair the injured, using his abilities to invoke compassion in others through impassioned speech and compassionate deeds.
"However, Dr. Cullen's weakness, the thirst for human blood, may prove to do his undoing in this war torn nation." I could get behind that. From what I understand, Alice earns a lot of money via stock exchanges. Yes, she uses her psychic powers for inside trading.
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casandraelf
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Post by casandraelf on Sept 14, 2014 12:30:16 GMT -8
the tvtropes WMG page for twilight had someone suggest that carlisle's vampire power is control, not compassion
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Post by Lady of Himring on Dec 5, 2014 19:05:34 GMT -8
the tvtropes WMG page for twilight had someone suggest that carlisle's vampire power is control, not compassion Interesting, sadly doubt it's true. If it were true control he'd handle Jasper better and the same goes for Edward's "I hate everything" mood. However, we're beaten over the head how compassionate he is (he's not, not really).
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Post by Bella on Mar 4, 2015 12:13:39 GMT -8
Yes he is! You just don't have the common sense to realise it! For a change,just ask yourself: what you would have done.Think deep about it. If you really truly would have done it differently, then you can judge!
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