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Post by Lady Phoenix on May 5, 2011 12:47:51 GMT -8
I don't think she's that bad. I think she could have been better if she had more development, because she just seems kinda . . . thrown in for the sake of pairing. Instead of giving ginny character, she molded her as Harry's girlfriend. That kinda sucks.
I don't think she deserves all the extreme hatred most of the fanbase gives her. She's not a demon harpy or anything.
I think the only people that really give her hate are the stupid pairing shipper people that make shipping wars over pointless shit.
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Post by Anya the Purple on May 6, 2011 20:47:36 GMT -8
Honestly, I don't like Hermione and Harry as a romantic pairing. I think their friendship goes too deep for that-They can't be "more than friends" because there's nothing more they could be. If that makes sense. I think Harry/Ginny is an ok pairing, though as stated before, a little more development would've been nice. But you can't say they didn't know each other-they hung out a lot at the Burrow, especially in later books. I like to think Harry's feelings for Ginny really began over the summer in book six (as is implied when her sitting with Dean rather than him on the train, reminding him that they don't actually hang out, surprises him).
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Heartless Hìppíe
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Post by Heartless Hìppíe on May 6, 2011 22:00:11 GMT -8
I see Ginny's crush, and her running from the room in all the books but the first, as a bit of foreshadowing. It keeps to JK's style, where she mentions something once in the first book, and it plays a role later on in the seventh and you didn't even realize it.
For Example, in the 3rd book the divination teacher didn't want to sit at the table for Christmas dinner because that would make 13 people, and the first to rise would be the first to die. What they didn't know, was that there was already 13 people before she arrived, because Peter was in Ron's Pocket. Dumbledore rose first to greet her, and three books later he died.
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Post by Anya the Purple on May 6, 2011 22:02:38 GMT -8
^WOAH! I totally didn't notice that!
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Post by Lovely Kiss on Jan 18, 2012 0:35:36 GMT -8
Very late response is late.
Well clearly Quidditch wasn't that important to Harry, seeing as he didn't become a player in his future. It might have been important if he played it professionally, but because he's an Auror, an equal love of a passtime fun sport does not a love connection make.
That is because aside from the second movie, all people ever do is call her a mudblood, and although offensive, she no longer sees the point in even addressing it. Yeah, she knows what she is, and she's come to terms with it. She's already proven herself to be intelligent and very helpful. She doesn't HAVE to hex or crash into people with broomsticks to prove a point. She's already proven it by non-violent actions.
Well does that MATTER? She DEFENDS herself is the key word here. Logic is her weapon, not violence. Just because she doesn't grow red in the face, and snap and hex people like Ginny, doesn't mean she isn't a powerful witch or can't stand up for herself. Besides, Hermione has spoken up on many occasions when it mattered. Rita Skeeter was posting lies about them, they both knew it wasn't true, so of course she said ignore it. But as we all know, Hermione later blackmailed that witch into never writing those fake stories again. So in the end, her intellect won out over pure violence. So again, former silence or taking a more subtle approach does not a non-self defending woman make.
If I'm being honest, I am not a shipper of H/Hr. At all. But I do see where they COULD have had a connection, so this doesn't really apply to my own beliefs really, I was simply playing devils advocate so to speak.
Perhaps, that's why I support them together.
But if that's the case, then does it matter whether or not it bothers him? Harry will always be a protector. He tried "protecting" Ginny and advised her to stay behind. So does that mean he thinks she's weak? No, just wanting to save her. He will ALWAYS want that, regardless so that's not a very good argument I think. Luna doesn't care, Luna has proven herself to be above it. Harry KNOWS she's strong, and like I said, he will want to protect his friends ANYWAY.
I don't see how Ginny takes the cake at all. She's no different than Luna and Hermione really. Luna is just more open-minded and airy fairy, and Hermione is logical to Ginny's "fierceness" But all in all, those three girls are powerful, loyal, and all good friends of Harry's. How does Ginny take the cake? Harry feels the SAME need to protect her as he does his other friends. No I don't see it, and clearly others don't either. Ginny is on the same level as the other two. She really is. Being more temperamental doesn't make her better. I do remember when Harry had felt hopeless at the battle, when Ernie, Seamus and Luna had conjured their patronuses to fight off the dementors, it was LUNA who encouraged Harry to keep fighting, not Ginny.
And then a silver hare, a boar, and a fox soared past Harry, Ron, and Hermione's heads: The dementors fell back before the creatures' approach. Three more people had arrived out of the darkness to stand beside them, their wands outstretched, continuing to cast their Patronuses: Luna, Ernie, and Seamus.
"That's right," said Luna encouragingly, as if they were back in the Room of Requirement and this was simply spell practice for the D.A. "That's right, Harry... come on, think of something happy..."
"Something happy?" he said, his voice cracked.
"We're all still here," she whispered, "we're still fighting. Come on, now..."
There was a silver spark, then a wavering light, and then, with the greatest effort it had ever cost him, the stag burst from the end of Harry's wand.
Or more famously, when Harry felt upset and tore up Dumbledore's office, thinking of nothing but his own torment, it was LUNA, who got him to finally feel for someone else. To see that it wasn't all about him and everyone hurts and goes through bad things in their life, not Ginny. For someone whose supposedly his big source of comfort, he sure NEVER really goes to her with anything. She has to arrive herself, or make him remember things. Like when she had to REMIND him that she almost died in the Chamber of Secrets. I'm sorry, but how the hell did he forget that? That was something life changing for Ginny I'm sure. For him to forget it? I don't think so.
Well putting it that way, Harry doesn't really know GINNY'S friends either. Hermione, Neville and Luna don't really count because they are also HARRY'S friends that he's been known (other than Luna and Ginny even made fun of Luna before Dumbledore's Army so I feel Luna is more Harry's friend anyhow). There is a scene from I believe the 4th or 5th book where Harry sees Ginny with her "other friends."
They never make an appearance in the book, so for Harry not to have known Cho's? Not a big deal. But he WAS at least acquainted with Marietta, so that counts for something at least. That's also not Cho's fault Harry is too embarrassed to approach her. I'm sure Cho would have been perfectly friendly. Ginny had more of an advantage in that area because Harry knew her since she was eleven, so obviously her face is more comfortable than someone he has a crush on from afar.
Yes, but I can argue that Harry was also going through turmoil because of Voldemort. He was constantly angry. Like I said, BAD timing, does NOT a permanently unfixable and unworkable relationship make. What about HER losses though? This is the problem. WHY does it always have to be about Harry? I know, he's the lead, but HIS losses aren't any more important than anyone elses. The Weasley's lost Fred, so Harry losing Sirius is more important? I don't think so. Teddy losing his parents isn't less important because he's not Harry.
Cho lost someone she cared about, it's only natural she's upset. Everyone has their own time length in which they need to grieve. No one has a right to tell them to get over it when they have NO IDEA what that person might have MEANT to them. If we're being straight, Harry didn't even really KNOW Cedric therefore although the loss was obviously shocking and tragic to him, it WOULDN'T hurt him in the heart as much as it would Cho or Cedric's father. But yet, HE gets more pity? But she's a whiny little witch because she won't get over it, and Harry isn't the bad guy here because he witnessed the death and is angry and stuff. I don't get that at all and it frustrates me that anyone would think of her like that.
Sorry, I meant she came to the final battle.
Cho coming back is a sign of loyalty. Harry values that a lot. Yes, she did forgive, but at the same time, betraying family knowing they will be KILLED, and betraying a group knowing they will simply be disbanded and possibly expelled isn't really on the same wavelength. There was a lot for Marietta to lose. Perhaps she was being selfish, but she was also thinking about her own family. I don't think that's technically a bad thing here. Perhaps Harry could snub Ron or Hermione if they ratted out the group, but not everyone is so dead-set like that. Sometimes, you have to forgive people.
Marietta, didn't even want to join, she only did it for Cho. She didn't trust Harry or Dumbledore, nor did she wish to be on Umbridge's bad side in the first place, I'm not surprised she told. But Cho knows her better than Harry does, he has issues with traitors, but he's not perfect and neither are his friends. I mean, does Harry really have room to talk when his own best friend is quick to turn on him due to his own insecurities?
Everyone makes bad decisions in their life. Whose to say Cho and Marietta even stayed friends in the end? We don't know, Cho isn't deeply enough explored to explain WHY she defended her friend. Which I think was an act of loyalty to her in itself.
But Harry describes people often. Hermione's hair gets bushier all the time, Luna's eyes are large and silver, thestrals reflecting in them. Ron is tall and freckly, Parvati's hair is shiny and black. He NOTICES people and when he finds them attractive, describes them in attractive ways. But I think Ginny's descriptions are overkill to make a point continuously, that Harry finds her attractive.
I really don't think so. If that was the case, that means she hasn't come to terms with it. Yes, obviously, at the time she'd care more for Cedric. She knew him longer it's no big shocker is it? Ginny and Hermione knew Harry longer so is it a big shock they'd care for him more than let's say...Ernie Macmillan or Michael Corner?
I UNDERSTAND why she wanted to talk to Harry about it. HE was the one who saw what happened, who might have known Cedric's final words, who might be the only person who could help give her the CLOSURE she needed. When Cho's friends abandoned her, do you think that worked out well? No. She had no one to talk to, except Marietta, it's no wonder she fiercely defended her. When everyone else abandons you and one person stands by your side, I don't see why you wouldn't defend them, even if it seems illogical.
Yes she did get Cho in trouble, but she had doubts beforehand, and again, people have been DYING. Her MOM could have been in danger, we have to at least indulge that fact. Some little group [probably in Marietta's opinion] was NOT worth her mothers career and possibly her life.
But I do not believe she was really using Harry. Harry could have had this opportunity to get some of the weight off his own shoulders. Yeah he talked about it to Ron and Hermione, but Cho needed to hear about it most and he couldn't even do that for her.
Harry: "Look, let's not talk about Cedric right now...let's talk about something else."
Cho: "I thought, I thought you'd u-u-understand! I need to talk about it! Surely you n-need to talk about it too! I mean, you saw it happen, d-didn't you?"
Harry: "Well - I have talked about it, to Ron and Hermione, but -"
Cho: "Oh, you'll talk to Hermione Granger! But you won't talk to me! P-perhaps it would be best if we just...just p-paid and you went and met up with Hermione G-Granger, like you obviously want to!"
I don't think Cho was being a brat, or annoying or anything. She honestly NEEDED to talk about it. It's been torturing her mind all year as not only were her Quidditch skills failing, but I'd assume her grades probably weren't at it's best, and she spent half the time crying. Those are signs of someone who NEEDS an ear to tell, a shoulder to cry on and Harry just wasn't having it. He was thinking about himself the whole time, I do not think Cho should get the cold shoulder for Harry's stubbornness.
No, they aren't as "fierce" as Ginny. They don't get mad as quickly and ram their broomsticks into peoples stomachs, I don't see how that makes them less worthy of Harry. Ginny has not been shown to be ANY tougher than them. Hermione showed great courage by giving up her own parents, knowing she may not survive, and they would never even weep over her memory because they wouldn't know who she is. I don't think I could do that. Luna is tough in being able to be an outcast, have people think she's just a nutcase and being really mature about it. Ginny flips out when people say bad things about her and resorts to childish hexes and behavior. That's not tough, that's just a defense mechanism.
What did GINNY have to fight for? We NEVER hear about that. I have heard plenty of times about RON having to fight for something. Ginny is POPULAR, PRETTY, A QUIDDITCH STAR, and APPARENTLY, the weasley's twins partner in crime. She's been breaking into the shed for YEARS since she was six to practice Quidditch. What, she's the youngest sibling and her mother used to pull her away from the boys because she was a girl, big deal. I am the youngest of several siblings, and my parents wouldn't always let me hang with them either.
Yeah being the youngest sibling AND a girl means obviously she'll have a tougher exterior, but doesn't make her any better for Harry. Luna and Hermione had their own journey's that didn't result purely from sibling rivalry. Luna knows what it's like to lose a parent, someone that is incredibly important in a child's life. She witnessed this at the innocent age of nine. She's also been an outcast since day one due to her own beliefs, and it takes a TOUGH personality to be able to withstand being snubbed by EVERYONE, having your stuff taken and still be completely calm about it.
Hermione has ALWAYS had to fight to make others see that she is MORE than just a "filthy little mudblood." She stands by Harry in her own way, even if she walks away because she doesn't like his decisions, her motives are for his best interest. She'd go to the end of the world with him, even if it hurts her. She loved Ron and for him to walk away, and her not to follow knowing she might lose him, I think that takes guts. It takes guts to say "yeah, I AM a mudblood, and I'm proud of it too." She SHOULD be, because she's intelligent, brave and loyal. She's not "fierce" like Ginny I GUESS, but that doesn't make her play second fiddle to her in the LEAST.
No, there is no difference. They are ALL tough. Ginny in her fierceness, Hermione in her rationality and willingness to stand by Harry to the death, and Luna's ability to be calm and collected, no matter how much she should be bothered or pushed by peoples ignorance and unwillingness to accept her.
I don't think that really works. Ginny never stopped caring for Harry. she only moved on to other guys in the hopes that Harry would notice her true nature. That's not tough in my opinion. She become more collected around him sure, but that's how friends are. They don't get all blushy and giggly.
Also, when did LUNA and HERMIONE have guys always help her? I DO recall it being HERMIONE who has to save the boys? They would have been dead since book one if not for her. Luna never had man as far as we know, but clearly she didn't need one to get by, nor did she need them protecting her since as I stated before, she was in the final three stand in the department of mysteries, not to mention SHE was the one holding GINNY up when her leg was hurting.
Hermione and Luna are rocks in their OWN way. Ginny isn't shown enough to really BE a rock from what I've seen. Not really. Hermione was always the one who stood by Harry. No Hermione isn't Ron in the sense that she isn't "fun" like him. But hell, I'd take my intelligent, loyal and brave best friend who stood by me when my so-called best friend basically left me for dead out of jealousy any day. But I guess that's just me.
Luna is calm, a bit airy but she isn't stupid. She personally hexed Alecto when she tried to attack Harry and she was the one who made him look outside his own feelings when he was only thinking about himself.
Yes, he felt awkward in the beginning because he didn't know her. And sure, ANYONE who speaks the truth like her is going to create a bit of awkwardness, but Harry NEEDS the truth told sometimes, and I can tell Harry does have a lot of respect for her. When Ron worried about Luna believing she might be in Azkaban, Harry felt bad that they couldn't really do much about it, but held CONFIDENCE that Luna was TOUGH enough to handle being in azkaban, and was probably teaching the inmates about wrakspruts. Handling azkaban is tough, A LOT of people go crazy in their we are told.
But that's the thing isn't it? Since when could Harry NOT rely on Hermione or Luna? Again, Hermione's been there for him since day ONE, and Luna, although late in the books, has NEVER turned her back on him. They are BOTH tough in their own right which doesn't make them less of a good match for Harry. It was Hermione who founded Dumbledore's Army to fight, and with Luna's help, got the story out for him being right about Voldemort returning. Wasn't it ALSO Luna, who mentioned ravenclaws diadem, which in fact turned out to be the horcrux they needed? Reliable, yes?
That right there is my problem. Ginny is a VERSION of the other characters. She's NOT unique. She's NOT just HER. In order for her to fit with Harry, she had to be molded into a Girl-Ron and a Mini-Molly. With Luna and Hermione, they can just be themselves and STILL fit the profile to be a match for Harry in their own right.
How is it important? If Molly is a surrogate mother, he doesn't need ANOTHER one. Molly is enough. I don't think that's a really strong argument. I mean if that's the case, RON would be looking for someone like his mother and HERMIONE is the one he chose. But in that case, HERMIONE is ALSO like Molly, therefore just as capable of being a match for Harry as Ginny apparently is.
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Post by Lady Phoenix on Jan 18, 2012 18:38:06 GMT -8
I'm gonna say that I don't like Harry/Hermonie simply because I think they're perfect as "brother" and "sister".
Just because a girl is your childhood friend does not automatically mean "TWU LUV". I mean, there are other relations besides romantic/sexual ones.
I don't mind Harry/Luna as much, though I usually picture Luna has Harry's "little sister".
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Post by Lady of Himring on Jan 18, 2012 19:40:50 GMT -8
^I agree with you. Boys and girls can be just friends and nothing more, I do believe that Harry sincerely sees Hermione as a sister; that sibling he never had.
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Post by Lovely Kiss on Jan 18, 2012 23:40:44 GMT -8
^I agree with you. Boys and girls can be just friends and nothing more, I do believe that Harry sincerely sees Hermione as a sister; that sibling he never had.
Same here. Personally, as I said I do not particularly go for H/Hr, however I do understand why SOME people see it the way they do. And if Hermione is Harry's sister he never had, then (since I do like Harry/Luna, she doesn't need to be a sister too.) x3 But my own opinion.
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Post by serenadeofhatred on Jan 20, 2012 17:46:11 GMT -8
I rather like Ginny... enough to really like redheads, in any case.
Hmm... Redheads...
Anyway, Harry and Ginny genuinely like each other, and I'm cool with that.
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Ravu
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Post by Ravu on Jan 21, 2012 17:08:19 GMT -8
I rather like Ginny too, I would only want her and nobody else for Harry like because she's a Weasley I like it how they're married. I was always like meh Ginny but on some occasions like when she was telling Ron and Harry that Hermione is going with someone to the Yule Ball and she wouldn't tell them who, I was like that is nice that she wasn't saying who. But I didn't like that she was too popular for her own good and in the sixth book when she was yelling at Ron she sort of annoyed me, but she's still ok I guess and if Harry had to mary someone then it's her.
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Post by Lady Phoenix on Jan 21, 2012 17:38:38 GMT -8
I think it sorta makes sense for Harry to marry Ginny, seeing how close he is to the Weasley family. Besides his parents, these are porbably the closest he has to an actual, loving family.
And now that he is married to Ginny . . . they are his family. Ron is now his brother[ [in law], Arthur is his father [in law], Molly is his his mother [in law], and Hermonie is also his sister [in law].
Now he really is part of the family, and I think that's how it should be.
If I only had to say something, it's just that Ginny is treated more like clay than a person -- morphed to be what Rowling wants her to be instead of letting the poor girl develop on her own.
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Post by Lovely Kiss on Jan 21, 2012 18:41:50 GMT -8
Yeah it makes sense to me in the fact that she has this huge family he's close to; but it doesn't make sense to me in the way that she has actually proven herself to be a better match than others. Take away her big family and she's no different. That's why I think she's nothing more than a typical prize for the hero, like most women seemed to be in the old days.
She's a carbon copy of her husbands best friend in woman form. She's not just Ginny. She WAS just Ginny in books 1 through 4 and I would have liked her to STAY the way she was. Because saying Ginny was all fire and popular back then is just bull as she never got asked to the yule ball until Neville asked her, and she was so lonely she was talking back and forth to an evil diary.
I just feel jipped on Ginny. I feel I COULD have adored her as a character the way I did before she became all SUPER GINNY on me. I probably could have adored Harry WITH Ginny if she'd been developed properly. But she wasn't. She was poorly slapped together in the end. I would have liked to see HOW she achieved this sudden popularity in book five it seems when in the previous book she couldn't even get a date to the ball. What changed over the course of several months that she became popular? She got a boyfriend?
I remember butter dish-Ginny. I felt for her because I had crushes and I've been nervous around them. I liked Ginny who tries to stand up for Harry in front of Draco. Yes, Ginny COULD have been well developed. I'd BUY her fiesty and outgoing personality if it had actually SHOWN more. I mean, even IF Ginny couldn't talk right around Harry, Ron says she normally never shuts up. But we never SEE that. It being Harry's point of view isn't a very good excuse because Harry notices things all the time, even random students walking down the hall. Their could have been a split scene in which he notices Ginny and she's outgoing and fiesty in his fourth year, but she shuts up when he comes around due to her embarrassment. I mean that alone would let me know Ginny isn't all silence, and it shows. She's got fire in their and I don't know, I'd get some better INSIGHT on her.
By my posts, it probably sounds like I hate Ginny Weasley...in the past, I DID. But I DON'T now. I just feel jipped on her character and it gets me into a rant. I DON'T feel like she deserved Harry in the end because I wasn't convinced of them being anything more than friends, or at the very least a high school crush, or even high school love. The kind that can eventually fizzle out when you realize it's just not working out like that.
I know Harry Potter isn't a love story so obviously Harry and Ginny weren't top priority. But that's the same reason why he should have just died, or not been with anyone. The Weasley's would always be his surrogate family regardless of whether or not he married Ginny. Molly sees him as a son anyways. Sure, marriage equals family ties, but still. The whole OBHWF didn't work for me when half of them was half-assed.
Again, DON'T hate Ginny, felt she COULD have been one of my favorite characters if I'd gotten more of her being less "I gotta be popular and beautiful to win my man" and more HER.
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Post by Lady Phoenix on Jan 21, 2012 19:30:07 GMT -8
And I fully agree.
She is perfect for harry as a way to to him being a part of the Weasley family.
But she is not perfect as being a character. She had too little scenes for her sudden transformation, and she seemed to only be made as a "relationship sue" for Harry.
I feel that she would have been better if maybe she was given more time in the books -- or maybe even became part of the main group itself.
Aw well, even Rowling has her flaws.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2012 18:36:05 GMT -8
I actually kind of forgot that Ginny existed several times. I absolutley hate Harry x Ginny. They just don't make any sense to me, considering she was barely in the story. All I remember Harry saying about Ginny was that she's pretty...and she likes Quidditch...oh, and she's pretty.
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Heartless Hìppíe
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Post by Heartless Hìppíe on Feb 3, 2012 8:03:19 GMT -8
Very late response is late. Well clearly Quidditch wasn't that important to Harry, seeing as he didn't become a player in his future. It might have been important if he played it professionally, but because he's an Auror, an equal love of a passtime fun sport does not a love connection make. That is because aside from the second movie, all people ever do is call her a mudblood, and although offensive, she no longer sees the point in even addressing it. Yeah, she knows what she is, and she's come to terms with it. She's already proven herself to be intelligent and very helpful. She doesn't HAVE to hex or crash into people with broomsticks to prove a point. She's already proven it by non-violent actions. Well does that MATTER? She DEFENDS herself is the key word here. Logic is her weapon, not violence. Just because she doesn't grow red in the face, and snap and hex people like Ginny, doesn't mean she isn't a powerful witch or can't stand up for herself. Besides, Hermione has spoken up on many occasions when it mattered. Rita Skeeter was posting lies about them, they both knew it wasn't true, so of course she said ignore it. But as we all know, Hermione later blackmailed that witch into never writing those fake stories again. So in the end, her intellect won out over pure violence. So again, former silence or taking a more subtle approach does not a non-self defending woman make. If I'm being honest, I am not a shipper of H/Hr. At all. But I do see where they COULD have had a connection, so this doesn't really apply to my own beliefs really, I was simply playing devils advocate so to speak. Perhaps, that's why I support them together. But if that's the case, then does it matter whether or not it bothers him? Harry will always be a protector. He tried "protecting" Ginny and advised her to stay behind. So does that mean he thinks she's weak? No, just wanting to save her. He will ALWAYS want that, regardless so that's not a very good argument I think. Luna doesn't care, Luna has proven herself to be above it. Harry KNOWS she's strong, and like I said, he will want to protect his friends ANYWAY. I don't see how Ginny takes the cake at all. She's no different than Luna and Hermione really. Luna is just more open-minded and airy fairy, and Hermione is logical to Ginny's "fierceness" But all in all, those three girls are powerful, loyal, and all good friends of Harry's. How does Ginny take the cake? Harry feels the SAME need to protect her as he does his other friends. No I don't see it, and clearly others don't either. Ginny is on the same level as the other two. She really is. Being more temperamental doesn't make her better. I do remember when Harry had felt hopeless at the battle, when Ernie, Seamus and Luna had conjured their patronuses to fight off the dementors, it was LUNA who encouraged Harry to keep fighting, not Ginny. And then a silver hare, a boar, and a fox soared past Harry, Ron, and Hermione's heads: The dementors fell back before the creatures' approach. Three more people had arrived out of the darkness to stand beside them, their wands outstretched, continuing to cast their Patronuses: Luna, Ernie, and Seamus.
"That's right," said Luna encouragingly, as if they were back in the Room of Requirement and this was simply spell practice for the D.A. "That's right, Harry... come on, think of something happy..."
"Something happy?" he said, his voice cracked.
"We're all still here," she whispered, "we're still fighting. Come on, now..."
There was a silver spark, then a wavering light, and then, with the greatest effort it had ever cost him, the stag burst from the end of Harry's wand.Or more famously, when Harry felt upset and tore up Dumbledore's office, thinking of nothing but his own torment, it was LUNA, who got him to finally feel for someone else. To see that it wasn't all about him and everyone hurts and goes through bad things in their life, not Ginny. For someone whose supposedly his big source of comfort, he sure NEVER really goes to her with anything. She has to arrive herself, or make him remember things. Like when she had to REMIND him that she almost died in the Chamber of Secrets. I'm sorry, but how the hell did he forget that? That was something life changing for Ginny I'm sure. For him to forget it? I don't think so. Well putting it that way, Harry doesn't really know GINNY'S friends either. Hermione, Neville and Luna don't really count because they are also HARRY'S friends that he's been known (other than Luna and Ginny even made fun of Luna before Dumbledore's Army so I feel Luna is more Harry's friend anyhow). There is a scene from I believe the 4th or 5th book where Harry sees Ginny with her "other friends." They never make an appearance in the book, so for Harry not to have known Cho's? Not a big deal. But he WAS at least acquainted with Marietta, so that counts for something at least. That's also not Cho's fault Harry is too embarrassed to approach her. I'm sure Cho would have been perfectly friendly. Ginny had more of an advantage in that area because Harry knew her since she was eleven, so obviously her face is more comfortable than someone he has a crush on from afar. Yes, but I can argue that Harry was also going through turmoil because of Voldemort. He was constantly angry. Like I said, BAD timing, does NOT a permanently unfixable and unworkable relationship make. What about HER losses though? This is the problem. WHY does it always have to be about Harry? I know, he's the lead, but HIS losses aren't any more important than anyone elses. The Weasley's lost Fred, so Harry losing Sirius is more important? I don't think so. Teddy losing his parents isn't less important because he's not Harry. Cho lost someone she cared about, it's only natural she's upset. Everyone has their own time length in which they need to grieve. No one has a right to tell them to get over it when they have NO IDEA what that person might have MEANT to them. If we're being straight, Harry didn't even really KNOW Cedric therefore although the loss was obviously shocking and tragic to him, it WOULDN'T hurt him in the heart as much as it would Cho or Cedric's father. But yet, HE gets more pity? But she's a whiny little witch because she won't get over it, and Harry isn't the bad guy here because he witnessed the death and is angry and stuff. I don't get that at all and it frustrates me that anyone would think of her like that. Sorry, I meant she came to the final battle. Cho coming back is a sign of loyalty. Harry values that a lot. Yes, she did forgive, but at the same time, betraying family knowing they will be KILLED, and betraying a group knowing they will simply be disbanded and possibly expelled isn't really on the same wavelength. There was a lot for Marietta to lose. Perhaps she was being selfish, but she was also thinking about her own family. I don't think that's technically a bad thing here. Perhaps Harry could snub Ron or Hermione if they ratted out the group, but not everyone is so dead-set like that. Sometimes, you have to forgive people. Marietta, didn't even want to join, she only did it for Cho. She didn't trust Harry or Dumbledore, nor did she wish to be on Umbridge's bad side in the first place, I'm not surprised she told. But Cho knows her better than Harry does, he has issues with traitors, but he's not perfect and neither are his friends. I mean, does Harry really have room to talk when his own best friend is quick to turn on him due to his own insecurities? Everyone makes bad decisions in their life. Whose to say Cho and Marietta even stayed friends in the end? We don't know, Cho isn't deeply enough explored to explain WHY she defended her friend. Which I think was an act of loyalty to her in itself. But Harry describes people often. Hermione's hair gets bushier all the time, Luna's eyes are large and silver, thestrals reflecting in them. Ron is tall and freckly, Parvati's hair is shiny and black. He NOTICES people and when he finds them attractive, describes them in attractive ways. But I think Ginny's descriptions are overkill to make a point continuously, that Harry finds her attractive. I really don't think so. If that was the case, that means she hasn't come to terms with it. Yes, obviously, at the time she'd care more for Cedric. She knew him longer it's no big shocker is it? Ginny and Hermione knew Harry longer so is it a big shock they'd care for him more than let's say...Ernie Macmillan or Michael Corner? I UNDERSTAND why she wanted to talk to Harry about it. HE was the one who saw what happened, who might have known Cedric's final words, who might be the only person who could help give her the CLOSURE she needed. When Cho's friends abandoned her, do you think that worked out well? No. She had no one to talk to, except Marietta, it's no wonder she fiercely defended her. When everyone else abandons you and one person stands by your side, I don't see why you wouldn't defend them, even if it seems illogical. Yes she did get Cho in trouble, but she had doubts beforehand, and again, people have been DYING. Her MOM could have been in danger, we have to at least indulge that fact. Some little group [probably in Marietta's opinion] was NOT worth her mothers career and possibly her life. But I do not believe she was really using Harry. Harry could have had this opportunity to get some of the weight off his own shoulders. Yeah he talked about it to Ron and Hermione, but Cho needed to hear about it most and he couldn't even do that for her. Harry: "Look, let's not talk about Cedric right now...let's talk about something else."
Cho: "I thought, I thought you'd u-u-understand! I need to talk about it! Surely you n-need to talk about it too! I mean, you saw it happen, d-didn't you?"
Harry: "Well - I have talked about it, to Ron and Hermione, but -"
Cho: "Oh, you'll talk to Hermione Granger! But you won't talk to me! P-perhaps it would be best if we just...just p-paid and you went and met up with Hermione G-Granger, like you obviously want to!" I don't think Cho was being a brat, or annoying or anything. She honestly NEEDED to talk about it. It's been torturing her mind all year as not only were her Quidditch skills failing, but I'd assume her grades probably weren't at it's best, and she spent half the time crying. Those are signs of someone who NEEDS an ear to tell, a shoulder to cry on and Harry just wasn't having it. He was thinking about himself the whole time, I do not think Cho should get the cold shoulder for Harry's stubbornness. No, they aren't as "fierce" as Ginny. They don't get mad as quickly and ram their broomsticks into peoples stomachs, I don't see how that makes them less worthy of Harry. Ginny has not been shown to be ANY tougher than them. Hermione showed great courage by giving up her own parents, knowing she may not survive, and they would never even weep over her memory because they wouldn't know who she is. I don't think I could do that. Luna is tough in being able to be an outcast, have people think she's just a nutcase and being really mature about it. Ginny flips out when people say bad things about her and resorts to childish hexes and behavior. That's not tough, that's just a defense mechanism. What did GINNY have to fight for? We NEVER hear about that. I have heard plenty of times about RON having to fight for something. Ginny is POPULAR, PRETTY, A QUIDDITCH STAR, and APPARENTLY, the weasley's twins partner in crime. She's been breaking into the shed for YEARS since she was six to practice Quidditch. What, she's the youngest sibling and her mother used to pull her away from the boys because she was a girl, big deal. I am the youngest of several siblings, and my parents wouldn't always let me hang with them either. Yeah being the youngest sibling AND a girl means obviously she'll have a tougher exterior, but doesn't make her any better for Harry. Luna and Hermione had their own journey's that didn't result purely from sibling rivalry. Luna knows what it's like to lose a parent, someone that is incredibly important in a child's life. She witnessed this at the innocent age of nine. She's also been an outcast since day one due to her own beliefs, and it takes a TOUGH personality to be able to withstand being snubbed by EVERYONE, having your stuff taken and still be completely calm about it. Hermione has ALWAYS had to fight to make others see that she is MORE than just a "filthy little mudblood." She stands by Harry in her own way, even if she walks away because she doesn't like his decisions, her motives are for his best interest. She'd go to the end of the world with him, even if it hurts her. She loved Ron and for him to walk away, and her not to follow knowing she might lose him, I think that takes guts. It takes guts to say "yeah, I AM a mudblood, and I'm proud of it too." She SHOULD be, because she's intelligent, brave and loyal. She's not "fierce" like Ginny I GUESS, but that doesn't make her play second fiddle to her in the LEAST. No, there is no difference. They are ALL tough. Ginny in her fierceness, Hermione in her rationality and willingness to stand by Harry to the death, and Luna's ability to be calm and collected, no matter how much she should be bothered or pushed by peoples ignorance and unwillingness to accept her. I don't think that really works. Ginny never stopped caring for Harry. she only moved on to other guys in the hopes that Harry would notice her true nature. That's not tough in my opinion. She become more collected around him sure, but that's how friends are. They don't get all blushy and giggly. Also, when did LUNA and HERMIONE have guys always help her? I DO recall it being HERMIONE who has to save the boys? They would have been dead since book one if not for her. Luna never had man as far as we know, but clearly she didn't need one to get by, nor did she need them protecting her since as I stated before, she was in the final three stand in the department of mysteries, not to mention SHE was the one holding GINNY up when her leg was hurting. Hermione and Luna are rocks in their OWN way. Ginny isn't shown enough to really BE a rock from what I've seen. Not really. Hermione was always the one who stood by Harry. No Hermione isn't Ron in the sense that she isn't "fun" like him. But hell, I'd take my intelligent, loyal and brave best friend who stood by me when my so-called best friend basically left me for dead out of jealousy any day. But I guess that's just me. Luna is calm, a bit airy but she isn't stupid. She personally hexed Alecto when she tried to attack Harry and she was the one who made him look outside his own feelings when he was only thinking about himself. Yes, he felt awkward in the beginning because he didn't know her. And sure, ANYONE who speaks the truth like her is going to create a bit of awkwardness, but Harry NEEDS the truth told sometimes, and I can tell Harry does have a lot of respect for her. When Ron worried about Luna believing she might be in Azkaban, Harry felt bad that they couldn't really do much about it, but held CONFIDENCE that Luna was TOUGH enough to handle being in azkaban, and was probably teaching the inmates about wrakspruts. Handling azkaban is tough, A LOT of people go crazy in their we are told. But that's the thing isn't it? Since when could Harry NOT rely on Hermione or Luna? Again, Hermione's been there for him since day ONE, and Luna, although late in the books, has NEVER turned her back on him. They are BOTH tough in their own right which doesn't make them less of a good match for Harry. It was Hermione who founded Dumbledore's Army to fight, and with Luna's help, got the story out for him being right about Voldemort returning. Wasn't it ALSO Luna, who mentioned ravenclaws diadem, which in fact turned out to be the horcrux they needed? Reliable, yes? That right there is my problem. Ginny is a VERSION of the other characters. She's NOT unique. She's NOT just HER. In order for her to fit with Harry, she had to be molded into a Girl-Ron and a Mini-Molly. With Luna and Hermione, they can just be themselves and STILL fit the profile to be a match for Harry in their own right. How is it important? If Molly is a surrogate mother, he doesn't need ANOTHER one. Molly is enough. I don't think that's a really strong argument. I mean if that's the case, RON would be looking for someone like his mother and HERMIONE is the one he chose. But in that case, HERMIONE is ALSO like Molly, therefore just as capable of being a match for Harry as Ginny apparently is.
Actually, we don't know what happens to Harry other than he eventually becomes an auror, it's entirely possible that he does play professional for a season. We already know that Quidditch is not considered a life time career by looking at bagman.
Ah, but see you're looking at this from hermione's perspective! -She- has come to that conclusion, but that doesn't mean that Harry has come to that conclusion yet. Hermione often makes up her mind about things that are contrary to Harry and Ron if not completely baffling to them.
You have to look at hermione's actions from Harry's Perspective and look at how he talks and thinks about them. His views on her defending herself are not the logical way that you are looking at them. While it's perfectly fine way to deal with conflict it is not the way that -Harry- would deal with them. Yes, Harry is an emotional Gun-ho idiot sometimes, so of course he's going to relate more to a woman that just simply hexes people and puts an end to it, rather than subtly investigating them for blackmail material.
I see where Hermione and Harry could be an awesome couple, if there were a couple things different. Like either Ron having someone else who he puts his attentions on, or Ginny not being in the story at all, but both of them there together kinda cut into Harry/Hermione in subtle ways that leads them to be just friends. Harry see's Ron affection for Hermione way before either one of them realize, and I think he just stepped aside at that point to just be a friend so he would not be in between the two of them. This really shows his to devotion to Ginny too, because when it was Hermione he didn't even consciously think about it, he just did it with his actions in the story, but with Ginny he agonized over losing his friendship to Ron but wasn't able to stop thinking about her.
It does matter, because even though he tries to protect Ginny, she challenges him by not listening and protecting herself based on her own decisions of how best to do that. Like when he tells her to stay and not fight, he's thinking of how physically to protect her, but Ginny knows that staying and not protecting her family would damage her emotionally so she goes out and fights for them. This is exactly what harry does even though everyone is telling him to run away and to hide. So, even though Hermione defends herself with logic, it doesn't have the same connection of Ginny reacting the same way to the situation that Harry does. In the case of Ron and Hermione, it's how they're different that gives their relationship strength, in the Case of Harry and Ginny it's how they are alike that works in their favor.
You have a point that Harry never goes to Ginny when he needs help, but I think that's a telling point in their relationship too. Whenever she's around he always wants to appear strong and look like he knows what he's doing, and I think that came about because of her crush on him in the second book, he wanted to continue to be that person that she looked up too, and not someone that needed help, regardless of if she knew he needed help or not, he wanted to appearance of strength. A lot of guys don't feel comfortable appearing 'weak' in front of someone they like romantically.
Harry knows all of her boyfriends though, those are constantly brought in the book, and Neville and Luna count in a BIG way, because they actually have mutual friends, Cho has -no- mutual friends with harry at all. That shows how alike that they are, and how well their relationship (but perhaps not a break up) would work because they can effectively hang out with the same people. Cho proves she can't do this with her jealousy of Hermione, and Hermione proves that she can do it by giving Harry advice on how to deal with Cho's jealousy.
Marietta counts as much as Ginny's Boyfriends, but I think both tend to work against Cho and Ginny in the end. Comfort in approaching someone also works in a big way in Ginny's favor, not that it discouraged Harry from Cho, but I think it still counts.
No one is saying that Harry's losses are more important. I don't think anyone gave him more pity either, I think that we just didn't get to see how people reacted to Cho because we only ever saw her when she was coming to talk to Harry. I don't think he tried to make her get over it faster, he just didn't want to talk about his grief with her. It could even be argued that he backed off so that she would have time to get over cedric, I mean Hermione really opened his eyes to the emotional trauma she was going through by liking Harry but still being upset about cedric.
Yes, sometimes you have to forgive people, but we see no indication that Harry does this in any of the books, so don't make assumptions that he does eventually do this. As far as we see in the book he's still upset with Cho's friend betraying them... and a little intimidated by hermione's cunningness. Ron turning on him is not completely his own fault, it had a lot to do with wearing the locket, and because harry never made it clear that to Ron that he was uninterested in Hermione. So, we do see Harry forgive him for this, and he does this probably because he feels at fault from excluding Ron unintentionally, and not being completely upfront with him, both about his intentions with Hermione and his lack of knowledge about what to do. Cho's Friend went to a Known Enemy and gave them over on a silver platter to save herself and her family. It was completely selfish on her part, and had nothing to do with Harry being at fault other than he was breaking a school rule that Marietta was in agreement with, up until she betrayed them. Plus, we have to look at this as a circumstance of them not hitting it off when they were attempting to date, and not at as a reason that they couldn't in the future try again. We know why they didn't try again, because Ginny made sure that she knew Harry was Her's and that Cho had lost her chance.
Yes, he notices what people look like, and I think that's mainly a plot device because he has to narrate, but like I said, he might pay attention to Cho because she's pretty, but he pays attention to Ginny because of what she is doing.
Actually, when Marietta turn them in, Voldermort was still in hiding, so no one had turned up dead yet, that didn't happen until the end of the fifth book when Voldemort was seen in the Ministry. People didn't start dying until the Summer in between the Fifth and Sixth book, long after the DA had been betrayed.
As far as Harry not talking about it, he just wasn't ready to be emotionally open with someone when they were on their -first- date, I think that's entirely reasonable. Especially with Rita Skeeter running around in the fourth book using every source she could to get emotional dirt on Harry and his friends, I think that made him overly cautious with anyone that developed a sudden interest in him. Then there's Romana Girl, who tried to drug him with a love potion!(that was the 6th book) Harry has just as much reason to keep his guard up as cho did for wanting him to talk to her. Again, we see circumstances working against cho more than really anything she does.
Hermione gives up her parents -after- Harry makes a commitment to Ginny, and -after- she makes her feelings about Ron known to Harry.
Again, Ginny responds to situations a lot like Harry does, and that makes her tougher, from -his- point of view.
Ginny had to fight all of her brothers growing up, especially with being the only girl. I can tell you right now being the only boy in the family is hard work as well. Also, I never said that Luna and Hermione were not strong, merely that they didn't have the same type of strength that Ginny has that makes her so similar to Harry.
Also, Hermione only has to fight a specific set of people about being Muggle born, everyone else accepts her, and those people she does fight about it are also in opposition of almost everyone else in the story too, while this makes her strong it doesn't set her apart as much as Luna being weird.
Ginny is shown as often as Luna is, the only difference is that Luna is so Weird that when she makes an appearance it sticks with people. Also, in my next post I plan on making a point about the infrequent visits of Ginny.
Yes, Harry can rely on Luna and Hermione, that's not meant to say that because he can rely on Ginny that he can't rely on anyone else, it's merely one of the points in her favor that she's proven time and again.
Just because Ginny has sides of her that are related to her brother and her mother doesn't mean she's not a person in her own right. That would be like me saying because you have your mother's eyes or her laugh that you are suddenly not a person yourself but just a clone of your mother. My point is that the things that she has in common with Ron, come together with the things she has in common with her Mother, that make her appealing to Harry in ways that Ron by himself or Molly by herself wouldn't work. Luna herself is like her father in the same ways that Ginny is like her Mother, so I don't think that you can make the claim that she is wholly of herself. Hermione is often strict, both on herself and on Harry and Ron, like her parents are strict, for that to apply to her too.
It matters because Harry starts realizing how much he adores Molly, and her mothering of him, and then starts focusing on how she includes him and makes him feel apart of the family. Then he starts noticing the same thing happens when he is around Ginny (minus the mothering part), and he realizes that she makes him feel like he's family too but in a different way. She also looks like Molly, and on occasion loses her temper like Molly, and that appeals to him on a subconscious level. While Hermione is mothering, she doesn't act like Molly, she doesn't look like Molly either.
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Heartless Hìppíe
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Post by Heartless Hìppíe on Feb 3, 2012 8:48:21 GMT -8
Yeah it makes sense to me in the fact that she has this huge family he's close to; but it doesn't make sense to me in the way that she has actually proven herself to be a better match than others. Take away her big family and she's no different. That's why I think she's nothing more than a typical prize for the hero, like most women seemed to be in the old days. She's a carbon copy of her husbands best friend in woman form. She's not just Ginny. She WAS just Ginny in books 1 through 4 and I would have liked her to STAY the way she was. Because saying Ginny was all fire and popular back then is just bull as she never got asked to the yule ball until Neville asked her, and she was so lonely she was talking back and forth to an evil diary. I just feel jipped on Ginny. I feel I COULD have adored her as a character the way I did before she became all SUPER GINNY on me. I probably could have adored Harry WITH Ginny if she'd been developed properly. But she wasn't. She was poorly slapped together in the end. I would have liked to see HOW she achieved this sudden popularity in book five it seems when in the previous book she couldn't even get a date to the ball. What changed over the course of several months that she became popular? She got a boyfriend? I remember butter dish-Ginny. I felt for her because I had crushes and I've been nervous around them. I liked Ginny who tries to stand up for Harry in front of Draco. Yes, Ginny COULD have been well developed. I'd BUY her fiesty and outgoing personality if it had actually SHOWN more. I mean, even IF Ginny couldn't talk right around Harry, Ron says she normally never shuts up. But we never SEE that. It being Harry's point of view isn't a very good excuse because Harry notices things all the time, even random students walking down the hall. Their could have been a split scene in which he notices Ginny and she's outgoing and fiesty in his fourth year, but she shuts up when he comes around due to her embarrassment. I mean that alone would let me know Ginny isn't all silence, and it shows. She's got fire in their and I don't know, I'd get some better INSIGHT on her. By my posts, it probably sounds like I hate Ginny Weasley...in the past, I DID. But I DON'T now. I just feel jipped on her character and it gets me into a rant. I DON'T feel like she deserved Harry in the end because I wasn't convinced of them being anything more than friends, or at the very least a high school crush, or even high school love. The kind that can eventually fizzle out when you realize it's just not working out like that. I know Harry Potter isn't a love story so obviously Harry and Ginny weren't top priority. But that's the same reason why he should have just died, or not been with anyone. The Weasley's would always be his surrogate family regardless of whether or not he married Ginny. Molly sees him as a son anyways. Sure, marriage equals family ties, but still. The whole OBHWF didn't work for me when half of them was half-assed. Again, DON'T hate Ginny, felt she COULD have been one of my favorite characters if I'd gotten more of her being less "I gotta be popular and beautiful to win my man" and more HER.
I think this is the most common mistake people make about Ginny. They assume that she should be a main character and get just as much focus in the story as Harry, simply because she ends up Marrying him and having his babies 30 years down the road. Ginny is not a main character, and the relationship between her and Harry has no more effect on the main plot than Harry's Love of Ron or Hermione or Luna or Minerva.
The way I see Harry Potter is that there are Two Main Characters in the story, and each of those Main characters gets two Characters that end up being Semi-Main characters, but not Minor characters, that help with the main Plot.
Harry is obviously one of those main characters, and his two Semi-Main characters are obviously Hermione and Ron, and it's obvious to see how his interaction with those two characters moves the plot along to the point that they aren't minor characters, but neither are they main characters Either.
The other Main Character is Voldemort, because without him the plot doesn't move forward, and his story is just as essential to the plot as Harry's story. Now, I thought about who his two buds were, and at first I wanted to say Bellatrix and Lucius, but after some thought I realize that neither one of them do that much to help further his story. They are certainly plot devices when they are in the story but there are two other characters that show the reader more about Voldemort, or at least represent what Voldemort is like. Those two characters are Peter Pettigrew and Draco Malfoy. This came as a revelation to me because I had considered both of them to be minor characters.
Lets look at them, who is that causes Harry's Parents to be killed and not Neville's? Peter. Who is that moves the story along in book three? Peter, though he does it from behind the scenes. Who nurses Voldemort back to health and learns about Barty Jr. ? Peter. Who prepares the spell and ultimately makes the sacrifice that brings Voldemort back? Peter. Who sets Harry and Ron free when Hermione is being tortured in the last book? And while this last one doesn't help Voldemort, it does move the story along, and shows the type of person Voldermort is and how he treats people who are loyal to him.
Who is the person thats always there to represent 'Evil' while Harry is Hogwarts? At first I wanted to say snape, but Snape is ultimately a red herring, and in reality it's Draco who always pitted against Harry. It's Draco that lets death eaters into the castle, and it's Draco that takes Dumbledore's Wand. It's because of Draco that snape has to kill Dumbledore. It's Draco that Harry Fights in the Castle, and it's Draco who constantly tries to betray everyone in Hogwarts in the last book. Not to mention that Lucius is only able to put the Dairy in Ginny's Cauldron because he's there buying Draco's Books. Also, and like with Peter, it's because of Draco that Voldemort is lead to believe that Harry is Dead, and put himself in a position to be killed. At first, I wanted to say the whole Malfoy family, but ultimately if you look at Draco's mother and father all of their actions in the story can be boiled down to Draco in the end somehow.
Now, Ginny, she's just a minor character, her role in the story is no where near important as these six people, and if you pit her against other minor characters like Minerva and Dumbledore, she's way down on the bottom of the list. Her role in the story is small, and J.K. did an excellent Job at prioritizing which characters needed face time and which didn't to move the story along because ultimately it's a story about Love vs Hate, and Good vs Evil. She's an important part, she's the love that Harry Fights for, but she's not the only love in the story, and yes at times she's used to show that Harry is complete character (because he has a romantic side, and love interests) but that should not be used against her to say that she is a bad character purely on the basis that she's not seen as often as Ron or Hermione. The fact that she develops and grows as a character, even if it is behind to scenes, should not be considered a bad thing, especially when you look at books like twilight where the Main characters do -nothing- to grow at all compared to Ginny and her growth from a Shy, bashful little girl to confident woman. Now if Harry Potter was a Teenage Romance Novel like Twilight, and it was all about Harry and his relationship with girls I would certainly agree that Ginny's appearance and marriage of Harry would seem abrupt, but that's not what the story is about at all, and their romance is Barely a subplot, and the only reason it gets recognized as a subplot is because it's important to Harry's story to show who loves him and who he loves because that's ultimately how he ends up winning against Voldemort.
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Post by Admin on Feb 3, 2012 9:03:30 GMT -8
I'm going to posit the theory that perhaps Harry could be attached to Ginny precisely because she is so far removed from the major events he faces. That is, thinking of her allows him to all but forget the issues he must face, if only for a while. She stands as a reminder that there is a happiness to be found outside his constant turmoil.
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Post by Admin on Feb 3, 2012 11:13:41 GMT -8
...why would you complain about an ongoing debate in a thread you've never posted in?
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Heartless Hìppíe
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Post by Heartless Hìppíe on Feb 3, 2012 13:47:35 GMT -8
and their romance is Barely a subplot, and the only reason it gets recognized as a subplot is because it's important to Harry's story to show who loves him and who he loves because that's ultimately how he ends up winning against Voldemort. No, you're wrong. The only reason Harry ended up winning was because he managed to destroy the horcruxes and because the Elder Wand didn't recognize Voldemort as its owner. Harry's loved ones weren't important to his winning at all outside of giving him another motivation to win/fleshing out his character. Anyways, why are you two dragging out this argument anyways? Neither of you seems willing to give up and to be quite honest any of the primary females would have worked fine as love interest, though some less than others. Factor in that all the canon couples came pretty much out of nowhere and the fact that J.K. Rowling isn't very good at writing romance so any couple would work depending on how you interpret things then I don't see why you two feel the need to draw this argument out. And even so, this is a thread dedicated to talking about Ginny not whether or not she or any of the other females would make a better love interest.
There are so many reasons how Love won this battle, from Snape's love for Lilly, from Lilly's Love for Harry, to Harry's Love of his Friends. I mean how do you think Harry was able to destroy the last Horcruxes if not out of self-sacrificing Love? But ultimately it was Voldemort's inability to understand and feel Love that lead to his destruction. Voldemort voices this when he asks Harry why he wouldn't die in their last battle. That, though, is a topic for another thread.
We're not 'dragging it out', we're simply exploring the many different viewpoints of Ginny, and why she was particularly chosen to end up with Harry. As it's a thread for 'Ginny' and I'm defending Ginny as a character, I think it's relevant. I can't speak for everyone, but for myself I'm am seriously enjoying this conversation, I find it challenging and worthy of discussion, if you don't, I don't really see anyone dragging you into it.
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Post by Admin on Feb 3, 2012 20:41:41 GMT -8
It's annoying because everyone seems to be being ignored in favor of the debate or being dragged into smaller debates, which is the only reason I hadn't posted. You do realize that we're only now just on the third page of the topic and there had been a several month gap between posts in Hippie and Fangbanger's debate during which anyone who had anything to say in response to any of the other posts in the thread could have easily done so, yes? And as for being "dragged into smaller debates," that is the way discussion works. You're complaining that no one thought the other posts were something to reply to for several months and that you didn't post in a discussion thread because you didn't want to participate in a discussion.
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Heartless Hìppíe
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Post by Heartless Hìppíe on Feb 4, 2012 6:59:02 GMT -8
...why would you complain about an ongoing debate in a thread you've never posted in? It's annoying because everyone seems to be being ignored in favor of the debate or being dragged into smaller debates, which is the only reason I hadn't posted.
There are so many reasons how Love won this battle, from Snape's love for Lilly, from Lilly's Love for Harry, to Harry's Love of his Friends. I mean how do you think Harry was able to destroy the last Horcruxes if not out of self-sacrificing Love? But ultimately it was Voldemort's inability to understand and feel Love that lead to his destruction. Voldemort voices this when he asks Harry why he wouldn't die in their last battle. That, though, is a topic for another thread.
We're not 'dragging it out', we're simply exploring the many different viewpoints of Ginny, and why she was particularly chosen to end up with Harry. As it's a thread for 'Ginny' and I'm defending Ginny as a character, I think it's relevant. I can't speak for everyone, but for myself I'm am seriously enjoying this conversation, I find it challenging and worthy of discussion, if you don't, I don't really see anyone dragging you into it.
I'd argue that it was pride that ultimately led to Voldemort's downfall. Yes it was love that gave Harry his motivation but it was Voldemort's arrogance and pride that led to his own undoing. And from what I'e read of the debate you two seem to be repeating yourselves with very minor changes outside of rephrasing everything. If that's not dragging it out, I don't know what is.
He was prideful because he thought he was in a position of power, because he completely underestimated love. This was admitted by himself during his Resurrection in the fourth book.
In a debate, where you have two sides trying to make their point, their stance doesn't change, how they present it changes, and continues to change, until you can find a way that the other side can see that point.
I've seen the other sides points, listened and even agreed, used those points to make points of my own. Hell, without this discussion I would've never considered Draco or Wormtail anything other than minor characters. So, in short it's been a worthwhile discussion that I've learned something from, regardless of how repetitive it sounds.
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Post by Lovely Kiss on Feb 9, 2012 17:20:39 GMT -8
True, but again, I feel if Hermione were given a chance by Harry at any point, that regardless of whether or not Quidditch was a big deal to her, that she’d still support Harry playing it, and watch him and be there for him if he loses or wins or whatever like she always is. I mean, if I had a husband who played football (and I don’t care for sports in general), I would still support and go to his games, cheering him on, which I feel is the most important thing. As long as you’re their for them, why does it matter if you’re a big quidditch freak or not? Other than, Harry likes the sport. I mean, his wife doesn’t have to like every single thing he likes, that’s just too unrealistic (and yes it’s a book, but still.) I never thought Quidditch was a viable reason as to why Luna or Hermione wouldn’t be a good choice for him. It’s just a sport in the end. I mean Ron married Hermione, who is well known to not like Quidditch very much, and Ron is obviously the bigger Quidditch fan since Harry “cringed at the thought of what he might say if he knew Hermione pronounced a quidditch move wrong.” Yet, he still married her. Why? Because theirs more to a woman than whether or not she likes a sport you like, so again to me, I don’t think quidditch should be a big deal in his decision of whether or not a girl is right for him.
Yes, but Harry always knew Hermione was a powerful witch, I mean he’s even in awe of how logical she is. He admires Hermione for her intelligence, I just don’t see why just because she doesn’t exactly stick up for herself by getting angry and hexing people, that she’s not right for him. I always felt Harry needed someone who can calm that temper of his, not be right beside him hexing people. That’s a double trouble team. I see people say look at it from Harry’s perspective, but we already have by reading the books, and we see that because we only view it from his perspective, that this whole discussion will just keep going around in a circle. And that is because looking at it from only his perspective, we will only get what he sees and not what might actually be. that’s my problem with it.
Sometimes you have to look outside his perspective and see what he doesn’t in order to prove a point. Harry isn’t always going to be the most perceptive or understanding so I have to look beyond his perspective because he didn’t give Hermione or Luna a chance, so we’ll never know if what he feels and believes now won’t change upon having given them a chance. He might have asked in the long run why they do or feel the way they do, and he might have gotten his answer in the way they perceived it. They may have opened his eyes to a different perspective other than his own, which is why I don’t just look from his POV because I can see the others.
I agree with that. Or if Ginny just got over her crush on him and moved on, and Harry continuously had no interest in her. Yes, the fact that Ron already liked Hermione permanently cut into the whole H/HR possible relationship. But I like R/HR so I don’t care. Well I think it just more shows how he always just thought of Hermione as a friend, whereas with Ginny, the only obstacle was Ron, his best friend. But I already felt like Ron was kind of hoping for Harry and Ginny, especially by the way he subtly looked at Harry at the end of the fifth book. Ron wasn’t really ever an obstacle for Harry to get over in order to win Ginny. Harry’s just not perceptive enough to see that his friend wouldn’t have minded either way. Besides, if Harry had had feelings for Hermione, I feel his agonizing would have been much worse knowing that Ron had feelings for her as well, and most likely, he wouldn’t have gone for it in the end. But since Ginny is Ron’s sister, he’d never have to make a decision like that or Ron getting jealous or anything.
But I’m also fairly sure that if it had been Hermione or Luna, they would have done the same thing. Hermione wouldn’t listen anyways because she’s been through everything he’s been through on his adventures and has more than proven herself to be able to get out their and defend others, and Luna? Well I just straight up believe she wouldn’t do what he asks either. I mean Luna has her friends out their too whom she’d want to defend. And if her father had been in the fray, I highly doubt she’d stay even more. Ginny’s decision wouldn’t have been any different from the other girls. Not even Cho (if it had been Cho he’d chosen) because she stated from the beginning that she will fight to avenge. Again, Ginny didn’t do anything I thought the others wouldn’t have done. But yes, Harry wants to protect everyone he loves. I thought it was personally ridiculous for him to want Ginny to stay. She’s proven herself to be just as powerful as the others and more than capable of standing up for herself. He was being selfish at that point. Ginny had her family out their whom she wanted to defend.
You can view it that way, but I feel a really good relationship should be that you can trust yourself to go to that person for advice. All men want to be strong in front of those they care for, but still. Especially in the sixth book. I was so angry that J.K didn’t at least make this a part where Harry could have gone to Ginny on his own. It could have been the perfect time to. When he felt he was being controlled? I don’t remember if this happened or not, but when he had the potions book, did he faintly recall Tom Riddle’s diary? If he did I think that’s some bullcrap that it took Ginny snapping at him, for him to remember that “OH YAH, Ginny was the whole plot for that Chamber of Secrets thing going on! I completely forgot that I fought a giant, eyeless basilisk when I was only twelve years old and slashed through his brain with my almighty Gryffindor sword! Bullcrap. This could have been the perfect chance for him. Anyhow, when he felt he was being controlled, he could have remember that Ginny was controlled by the diary in the second book, and go to her for help. Yes, Ginny is someone he likes, but apparently she was also his friend, so that shouldn’t have deterred his decision to find her. But nope, we get Harry forgetting. What a load.
Well he didn’t really “know” Michael Corner, but he did know Dean somewhat, which okay fair enough. But the same could count for Luna, and Hermione in that way. Hermione is mutual friends and Luna is mutual friends, so that counts in their favor as well. Right, Cho has no mutual friends. But you also have to remember that Cho was jealous of Hermione because she felt Harry liked her. I don’t think that should count against her, I mean she wasn’t the only one who believed that. Viktor Krum, Ron, countless viewers of the daily prophet and even Molly Weasley thought that Hermione was pulling one over on Harry and Krum at the same time, or that Harry had feelings for her. Cho, from her perspective? Of course she was jealous! He mentioned the girl that only last year, rumors had been spreading about her, that neither of them took the time to disprove, and it didn’t help that in that year, when Ron left the group out of his own jealousy, that Harry and Hermione were always around each other.
Even though we as the readers knew what was going on, The outsiders looking in might have seen it a little differently. So again, Cho feeling that way? I understand her perspective. Ginny obviously wouldn’t feel jealous because she is friends with Hermione and sister to Ron, so more than likely is in the loop of what is really happening. But just imagine if she wasn’t in the loop? I’m not saying she would definitely act different, but it is a possibility. Cho isn’t jealous of Hermione for no reason, so I don’t think it counts against her, especially since Harry continuously doesn’t bother to mention that he only views Hermione as a friend. I mean, when he does realize why she’s jealous? He laughs! yes, we know why he did because the idea that Cho was jealous of Hermione thinking he liked his friend was silly to him, Cho saw it as rude, and of course she stormed out. Another form of miscommunication.
It seems to me like they did. I mean, I recall in the books that Cho was mostly seen by herself nowadays, meaning her group of girls left her side. Harry had people by him. He had Ron, Hermione, obviously Ginny, Luna, Dumbledore, etc. Didn’t look like she had any support behind her aside from Marietta. If that one person stood by your side, of course you’re going to defend them, it’s only natural. I mean I guess I understand for the first date, but Cho is probably different. Harry feels backing off and giving space is better ,but Cho might feel talking about it helps. The thing is, Harry is unwilling to compromise his own feelings, making him hardheaded, which counts as his own flaw, not exactly a reason why Cho wouldn’t work with him. Yes, Hermione opened his eyes because Harry that year couldn’t see past his own problems, he was self absorbed until Luna came in at the end.
Well I’d say him getting over his childhood rivalry with Draco counts for something like that. No, he won’t forgive betrayal because he knows where that leads, but I do recall that Marietta was dragged into the meetings by Cho, who even mentions this. Marietta didn’t like Harry, didn’t agree with Harry, and wanted nothing to do with the group. So in my opinion, Marietta didn’t betray anyone other than Cho because she had no loyalty to the group. I mean if I tell you I don’t like you, don’t agree with you, and I betray you, don’t act all surprised and offended when it happens. I don’t see why he’d be intimidated. Hermione has always been cunning and intelligent, this is no different. He even proudly states later to Cho that he thought her idea was “brilliant.” you can’t excuse that though. Ron didn’t have a lock to speak of in the fourth film, and Ron should have known. I mean if it was made obvious that he left because riddle was completely riddling his mind with his own insecurities, then I’d be more forgiving, but seriously Harry always forgives him with the snap of a finger, when Ron basically left them for dead. But yet if a girl he barely knows and obviously doesn’t like him rats his group out, he hates her forever. What a load. Actually I quite remember Cho and Harry were hitting it off before Cedric was mentioned. Again:
Only a group of Slytherins ruining his cheerful mood did it. He felt more comfortable around her at that point. They even spent a little time bashing their “favorite” teacher, Umbridge. Again, only Cedric’s death came In between. Just like only Ginny being in the story or Ron having feelings for Hermione coming in between a relationship with Harry. These were circumstances in which their relationship ultimately wouldn’t work, but doesn’t work against them period if you get what I’m saying?
He pays attention to Hemione’s defining feature, which is her intelligence, and he pays attention to Luna in the way that she’s unique and different, another defining feature. He sees their strengths, and he sees I guess whatever Ginny does. Because he’s infatuated with her. I mean, when he was infatuated with Cho, Harry got jealous over Cedric and decided he hated him, when in fact, Cedric was an honest, kind person whom Harry intentionally misjudged because of his own crush on Cho. Same thing with Cho being irrationally jealous of Hermione for something she didn’t understand. But that counts more in the “why jealousy shouldn’t disprove a relationship because everybody in that book gets jealous” theory. XD
Again, Marietta had no loyalty to the group, Dumbledore’s word, or Harry whatsoever. It was kind of like asking Malfoy to keep a secret.
But you could chalk those circumstances up to bad timing. That doesn’t mean she would have never made a good choice for him in the long run. But I suppose he wasn’t emotionally ready. Then again Harry just was bad with girls in general. It was his first date, first kiss, first girlfriend, he didn’t know what to do! Yes, but again that works for Cho’s argument to. Rita running around, Harry and Hermione not saying anything, and continuing to hang around each other, and then now after all that, Harry mentions Hermione during their date. How he has to meet her afterward. To us, yeah he has to meet her for this, but even Hermione understood why Cho felt upset. Harry couldn’t think of a good excuse, so he just said it was stupid.
Doesn’t change the fact that she did it. Regardless of whether or not Ginny was in the book or Ron had feelings for her, she would have done so, therefore, them being around doesn’t deter her selfless decision in anyway. In fact, in a way it works in her favor.
Yes, from his point of view. Because Harry feels he’s right unless strictly proven to be otherwise. Someone being exactly like him in response? I never got how that was good thing. I mean sure, she’d understand why he felt that way, but we’ve seen more than enough times that Harry’s decisions and responses aren’t always rational, so for another person to be exactly like him and doing what he does without telling him otherwise?
We never see this. Ginny is never shown to fight her brothers. We just assume this because she‘s the only girl and youngest. All we know is Ginny is the youngest, therefore they protect her. Not fight with her, take her stuff and holding it out of her reach. They may tease her a bit like all older siblings do, but they clearly love and care about her. The only person I see her fighting is her mom. But Harry, Luna and Hermione also have similarities. When Harry was growing up, unlike Ginny, who had a big family that loved her, Harry was beaten up by bullies, for being different and a “freak.” Luna has always been different and it’s likely she’d always been picked on. Unlike Harry, she learned to deal with it in a different way, likely making her emotionally stronger and less of a firecracker. Now, people who pick on Harry, he threatens with magic, or beats the crap out of them. Luna also lost her parent when she was younger, and Harry lost both his parents. Hermione was loved despite being different, but she probably feels more herself at Hogwarts, the same way Harry does.
Well we know purebloods hate Muggleborn, but we also know that there are halfbloods who hate Muggleborns. So that’s two specific sets of people, perhaps one moreso than the other, but two sets in any case. I mean, with Harry we only had to deal with one specific set of people wanting him dead: “death eaters” but that doesn’t make it any less of a problem. If Ginny fought, it was only a specific set of people “her brothers” but again, never shown to have fought. And again, Luna isn’t “weird” she’s unique. What, believing in what seems to be the impossible is weird? I think it’s inspiring.
They looked at each other. Luna was smiling slightly. Harry did not know what to say, or to think. Luna believed so many extraordinary things… yet he had been sure he had heard voices behind the veil too…
He even turns to her for impossible things that his friends wouldn’t believe him for. Like seeing thestrals instead of the carriages pulling themselves.
It's all right," said a dreamy voice from beside Harry as Ron vanished into the coach's dark interior. "You're not going mad or anything. I can see them too."
"Can you?" said Harry desperately, turning to Luna. He could see the bat-winged horses reflected in her wide, silvery eyes.
Apparently she ended up being famous for her more open minded perspective and discovering new creatures. Luna doesn’t care, it doesn’t bother her, which makes her more emotionally mature than Harry, and I think he could open up and learn this.
But she makes an impression, so regardless of how, she makes it and it sticks. Ginny is a firecracker and her attitude sticks with people, how is that any different from Luna? Both their personalities are strong and stick with you, regardless of which way.
And I would agree with that, if that wasn’t all she seemed to be. She’s just a carbon copy. She was specifically made to be perfect for Harry and for her to be perfect for him, she’d have to be a combination of “the person he’d most miss” and a mother figure. Just add in that famous Weasley temper and you’ve got Ginny.
Well not really because Harry had his mothers eyes, and fathers looks but he’s really nothing like his father and was ashamed of him in the fifth book finding out how he used to act, and with Lily, well in a way he is like her, but ultimately Harry is different from both of them. I’m not saying looking like them makes her a copy, I’m saying being exactly like them makes her a copy. She’s exactly like Ron with boobs. And confidence. Only difference is she isn’t funny.
I always thought that was weird though. Because Ginny is like Molly and Ron she’s perfect for Harry, not because she’s herself, but because she reminds him of other people in his life. Ginny should be his perfect match on her own.
I really don’t recall Ginny really doing anything noteworthy though. The chocolate scene? She just says “the thing about hanging around Fred and George is, you start to believe anything’s possible if you’ve got enough nerve.” I don’t see how that’s a big deal. Oh, and her snapping at Harry for forgetting the most traumatizing thing that should happen to an eleven year old girl, maybe snickering immaturely at fleur delacour, and accepting that he was going off to fight.
I mean where’s the big deal? What did Ginny do that no other girl did? She’s a fireball, that’s it. Her personality is too close to Harry’s for me to believe they would have lived happily ever after. I mean their decisions might fit the same, but what about where they clash? If they clash, it’s going to be hectic, since they are both stubborn and they can’t like everything, so when they clash, they should clash hard, this is where you’ll need the calmer mind to rationalize. But not with them.
The reason they lived Happily Ever After is because she’s a girl in the Weasley family, and that’s how J.k planned it. No real true effort was given. Ginny didn’t even need to be in the book any more in fact. But if J.k had bothered to put the effort in giving Ginny’s appearance more noteworthy purpose, it could have worked. Show us beforehand that Ginny loved quidditch. A split scene when Ginny is jumping up in her seat cheering at the Quidditch World Cup shows her love for it (instead we get her covering her eyes in horror at the possibility that a quidditch player got hurt). Harry could have noticed this. I mean, there is no excuse. Regardless of whether or not it’s a love story, if you’re going to put a third string character with your main character, they better have good enough screen time in the book to show the reader that they are perfect for them and don’t give us that “oh they developed behind the scenes.” That wouldn’t fly if it was Ron or Hermione, but with Ginny it’s perfectly okay for her to develop over the summer.
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