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Post by vampirekites on Dec 14, 2010 16:48:10 GMT -8
SMeyer has a tendency to contradict herself in every way with Twilight. We're supposed to be in love with Edward and we're told he's wonderful, when he really isn't. We're supposed to be either rooting for Bella or be her,we're told that she's a mature, selfless snowflake, when she really isn't. We're supposed to not have sympathy for Leah and we're told that she's a bitter hag and she ruins everyone's happiness, when she is so far from that. Smeyer has no real thought into how she creates her characters on paper. Whatever she does to them has the extreme opposite effect, and she creates character assassination when people start loving the characters she doesn't want us to. It's extremely disturbing that she has to have Edward and Bella be so loved and perfect that she sabotages her own characters to make that happen.
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Post by Chaotic Neutral on Dec 14, 2010 17:15:05 GMT -8
@cn- It's fine. I'm just glad the message went through. At that time, our messages were faulty at times. She does. I know we're not supposed to see Leah as a woobie, and Meyer does everything she can to claim Leah is no Woobie. It's still not working. I'd love Leah to destroy worlds, but I'm hoping she wins. Twiworld does not deserve to exsist. I know! The wolves are idiots. They should be injected with a shot of common sense. Glad you're back. Did I tell you about my theory on imprinting during the message? Purple Rose- Oh! I remember that discussion. Good times. Goood times. Same here. It was just a shame I wasn't able to make it back for good before the forums got moved again. Well, if Meyer didn't want Leah to be a Woobie, maybe she shouldn't have had all this shit happen to her when there was no real reason for it. It wasn't like Leah was a total bitch who deserved this shit. She only became the bitter hag because of what happened to her, which honestly, was very realistic and was something that actually can and DOES happen to people in the real world who are slammed with bad event after bad event without being allowed time to grieve, just like with Leah. I'll settle for Leah destroying Forks. In one fic where she joined the Volturi to attack Bella and the others, I was rooting for her the whole time, even though I knew she was technically on the wrong side. I'm glad to be back. And no, I don't recall seeing that. What's your theory?
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blenderbender
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Post by blenderbender on Dec 14, 2010 17:53:24 GMT -8
Yeah, I missed having you around. Especially since we didn't get to finish that RP we were doing. Yeah, but we could spend a whole month talking about what Meyer should've done, without even scratching the surface. Yeah, I'd be nutso if any of that stuff happened to me. Yeah, same here. I've contemplated having Leah go homicidal on the Cullens a few times.
Well, said theory popped up when we were discussing Sam's jerkassery, for the 7th time (hey, we were talking for over a year, we were bound to talk about it a few times), and I thought "How can Sam not see how he's doing to Leah?". My theory says that while the wolves lost their entire personality, it's still their somewhere. They know everything they're doing, but the imprint makes them physically unable to do anything that might hurt the imprint. They can't even think anything bad in wolf form. Sam knows what he's doing to Leah, and still loves her, but the imprint makes it impossible to act, or even think, on it. Outside, the imprinted wolves are happy as can be. Inside, they will never ever stop screaming.
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Post by Chaotic Neutral on Dec 14, 2010 19:14:59 GMT -8
I know. And it was getting fun, too. Heaven knows, I probably would have gotten fed up and slaughtered the lot of them before the series could have gotten around to BD if it were me in Leah's shoes. Really says something about her when--for all her bitchiness, she hasn't actually gone out and seriously harmed someone. "Oh my god! The La Push reservation has just mysteriously and inexplicably exploded! Good thing you were babysitting little Claire out of town during that time, huh, Leah?"
Hmm...that's an interesting theory. And pretty scary. They're completely miserable but have to act happy. But then there's the issue of the mind-reading. Wouldn't the other wolves notice their misery?
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Post by vampirekites on Dec 14, 2010 19:36:19 GMT -8
I think it's more of snapping mentally than uncontrollable denial.
I've read a story about an older man in 1930's Key West named Carl Von Cosel who fell in love with a young Cuban girl. He was already married with two children, and they went north to his sisters while he earned enough money to care for them. He insists that he dreamed about this Cuban girl for years and searched for her, only to find this girl was very much real, and very sick. He cared for her until her death, which greatly sadden him. He couldn't image this beautiful girl rotting in the grave, so he stole her body and kept it with him, recreating her skin with wax and silk. He also did *ahem* other stuff to her.
Point being, this man was as normal as one can be (relatively at least) until he met this girl. All of a sudden, all of his thoughts were on her. He went from stable human being to an obsessed mad scientist. I think this is what happens with imprinting. Whatever it is, it compels these boys to become obsessed with their "soul mate" and think of nothing but them. It's instantaneous , permanent and has no real explanation other than "it is what it is".
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Post by Chaotic Neutral on Dec 14, 2010 20:19:12 GMT -8
^But still incredibly creepy and almost implies that it's something to overcome rather than something to simply fall into.
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Post by Anya the Purple on Dec 15, 2010 5:36:24 GMT -8
Ah, so THA'TS what a woobie is.
...Jeez, Blenderbender, that's creepy. Then again, imprinting is creepy...
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blenderbender
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Post by blenderbender on Dec 15, 2010 13:48:53 GMT -8
I know. And it was getting fun, too. Heaven knows, I probably would have gotten fed up and slaughtered the lot of them before the series could have gotten around to BD if it were me in Leah's shoes. Really says something about her when--for all her bitchiness, she hasn't actually gone out and seriously harmed someone. "Oh my god! The La Push reservation has just mysteriously and inexplicably exploded! Good thing you were babysitting little Claire out of town during that time, huh, Leah?" Hmm...that's an interesting theory. And pretty scary. They're completely miserable but have to act happy. But then there's the issue of the mind-reading. Wouldn't the other wolves notice their misery? I actually saved the RP before the boards died, but it'd be hard to restart it without context for the first message. Before BD? I'd have killed everybody before Bella even knew my situation. At least the NM movie had Victoria cause Harry's fatal heart attack. Oh, that would be awesome! It'd be especially bad for Sam, Quil, and Jacob. Quil and Jacob are pedophiles and can't do anything. That's where I got the idea that they can't think about the unfairness of it all in wolf form, since that's when they can read each others minds. @ Anya- Thank you!
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Post by Lady of Himring on Dec 15, 2010 14:21:03 GMT -8
I think Smeyer doesn't understand what sympathy means, just look at Bella. She's completely obnoxious and grade A bitch and she has no reason to be.
And then you have Leah, who suffers and incredible amount of loss in such a short period of time and no one is able to feel sorry for her. And she's a bitch, because she's angry, hurt, betrayed, she's mouring her father and gets not an ounce of sympathy from anybody.
But then again, Bella is Smeyer. And this is her "I'm-super-special-and-anyone-should-love" fantasy.
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Post by Lady Phoenix on Dec 15, 2010 14:48:25 GMT -8
But then again, Bella is Smeyer. And this is her "I'm-super-special-and-anyone-should-love" fantasy.Even if it means trampling on others and treating those in need like scum. What a great lesson for teenage girls! /sarcasm
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Post by Lady of Himring on Dec 15, 2010 14:57:20 GMT -8
Even if it means trampling on others and treating those in need like scum. What a great lesson for teenage girls! /sarcasm ^I actually think that's the reason many fangirls don't see what's wrong with Bella. Because by excusing Bella's bitchness they are in a way, justifying their behavior.
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blenderbender
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Post by blenderbender on Dec 15, 2010 15:31:55 GMT -8
So true.
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Post by Lady Phoenix on Dec 15, 2010 15:40:23 GMT -8
Even if it means trampling on others and treating those in need like scum. What a great lesson for teenage girls! /sarcasm ^I actually think that's the reason many fangirls don't see what's wrong with Bella. Because by excusing Bella's bitchness they are in a way, justifying their behavior. So in hosrt, the moral of Twilight is to be a selfish bitch and everything comes to you on a golden platter with diamonds encrusted around the rim.
SHAMELESS!
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Post by Lady of Himring on Dec 15, 2010 16:08:19 GMT -8
^I think it's more on the lines of getting away with being a horrible person. Bella has done a lot of shitty things and got away with it, why? Because she's a special snowflake.
Do we have a Bella thread so we can discuss her better? If not I'm making one.
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Post by Lady Phoenix on Dec 15, 2010 16:17:25 GMT -8
^I think it's more on the lines of getting away with being a horrible person. Bella has done a lot of shitty things and got away with it, why? Because she's a special snowflake.
Do we have a Bella thread so we can discuss her better? If not I'm making one.
Go ahead and make one
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Post by Chaotic Neutral on Dec 15, 2010 18:18:09 GMT -8
I know. And it was getting fun, too. Heaven knows, I probably would have gotten fed up and slaughtered the lot of them before the series could have gotten around to BD if it were me in Leah's shoes. Really says something about her when--for all her bitchiness, she hasn't actually gone out and seriously harmed someone. "Oh my god! The La Push reservation has just mysteriously and inexplicably exploded! Good thing you were babysitting little Claire out of town during that time, huh, Leah?" Hmm...that's an interesting theory. And pretty scary. They're completely miserable but have to act happy. But then there's the issue of the mind-reading. Wouldn't the other wolves notice their misery? I actually saved the RP before the boards died, but it'd be hard to restart it without context for the first message. Before BD? I'd have killed everybody before Bella even knew my situation. At least the NM movie had Victoria cause Harry's fatal heart attack. Oh, that would be awesome! It'd be especially bad for Sam, Quil, and Jacob. Quil and Jacob are pedophiles and can't do anything. That's where I got the idea that they can't think about the unfairness of it all in wolf form, since that's when they can read each others minds. Good thinking, but yeah, that would be a bit difficult. Really? And here I thought you were supposed to be the optimistic one willing to believe in the best in people and give others a chance. Yeah, at least the movie TRIED to do better. Wouldn't it, though? ;D I don't know about that. I could see how they wouldn't let their imprints know, but I wouldn't think it would be that way in the pack hive mind if they were really screaming inside. Besides, didn't Jacob say that Leah's thinking had made the guys so uncomfortable that they'd be harping on her about it? They bashed on her because she couldn't regulate her thoughts around them. And they couldn't seem to NOT think of their imprints at any point. It seems more as though their thoughts are honest.
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blenderbender
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Post by blenderbender on Dec 15, 2010 18:55:46 GMT -8
I actually saved the RP before the boards died, but it'd be hard to restart it without context for the first message. Before BD? I'd have killed everybody before Bella even knew my situation. At least the NM movie had Victoria cause Harry's fatal heart attack. Oh, that would be awesome! It'd be especially bad for Sam, Quil, and Jacob. Quil and Jacob are pedophiles and can't do anything. That's where I got the idea that they can't think about the unfairness of it all in wolf form, since that's when they can read each others minds. Good thinking, but yeah, that would be a bit difficult. Really? And here I thought you were supposed to be the optimistic one willing to believe in the best in people and give others a chance. Yeah, at least the movie TRIED to do better. Wouldn't it, though? ;D I don't know about that. I could see how they wouldn't let their imprints know, but I wouldn't think it would be that way in the pack hive mind if they were really screaming inside. Besides, didn't Jacob say that Leah's thinking had made the guys so uncomfortable that they'd be harping on her about it? They bashed on her because she couldn't regulate her thoughts around them. And they couldn't seem to NOT think of their imprints at any point. It seems more as though their thoughts are honest. I suppose I could try looking through the RP and try to summarize the context. That got bound, gagged, and stuffed in a closet in the back of my head. I finally got rid of it! Though, they stopped said effort when they said they were considering the sex scene for BD. It really would. Yeah, I'm gonna have to consider that one. Oh well.
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Post by Chaotic Neutral on Dec 15, 2010 19:53:03 GMT -8
^You can if you want to. I remember where we left off--I think. My group was storming the Palace and I had custody of Edward, who got bitten by reverse-zombie Sue whose bite can infect people with logic. And you went to the Senate for help after Meyer took over the Writer's Force. We could always plot other things, though. And speaking of plotting, you still okay with my use of Isabella? Oh...somehow, I can't tell whether that's a good thing or a very, VERY bad thing. Seriously? Putting in the sex scene but taking out the birth scene? Bastards...
All in all, I see imprinting as something to overcome. Because while I get that "true love" is important and all, I just believe that there are some things that are simply more important. Like dignity. And self-respect. And NOT being a total skank or asshole to the people who love you in favor of a sure thing.
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Post by Blue Suede Shoes on Dec 15, 2010 21:24:39 GMT -8
Well now that you've said all this about your RP you have to start it again. This discussion can't just amount to nothing.
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blenderbender
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Post by blenderbender on Dec 16, 2010 13:31:07 GMT -8
^You can if you want to. I remember where we left off--I think. My group was storming the Palace and I had custody of Edward, who got bitten by reverse-zombie Sue whose bite can infect people with logic. And you went to the Senate for help after Meyer took over the Writer's Force. We could always plot other things, though. And speaking of plotting, you still okay with my use of Isabella? Oh...somehow, I can't tell whether that's a good thing or a very, VERY bad thing. Seriously? Putting in the sex scene but taking out the birth scene? Bastards... All in all, I see imprinting as something to overcome. Because while I get that "true love" is important and all, I just believe that there are some things that are simply more important. Like dignity. And self-respect. And NOT being a total skank or asshole to the people who love you in favor of a sure thing. I think that sounds about right. I'll check and PM you with it, and we can start it up again. Like I said, I've got the whole thing on my laptop. Yeah, this RP is going to go to a very weird place. Yes, of course I'm alright with your use of Isabella. I think they're trying to make it dark and edgy. They're failing, but it's the effort I suppose. Same here. There is something to be said about self respect. @blue Suede Shoes- This is kind of a PM Rp between me and CN, though when we're finished, if CN doesn't mind, I could put it into a story format.
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Post by Blue Suede Shoes on Dec 16, 2010 13:51:26 GMT -8
@blue Suede Shoes- This is kind of a PM Rp between me and CN, though when we're finished, if CN doesn't mind, I could put it into a story format. Oh, only if you want to. I'm sure I'll have completely forgotten about it by then anyway. It's just a bit confusing to open the Leah thread and find so many posts about your private RP rather than Leah.
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Post by vampirekites on Dec 16, 2010 15:19:06 GMT -8
@blue Suede Shoes- This is kind of a PM Rp between me and CN, though when we're finished, if CN doesn't mind, I could put it into a story format. Oh, only if you want to. I'm sure I'll have completely forgotten about it by then anyway. It's just a bit confusing to open the Leah thread and find so many posts about your private RP rather than Leah.
Yeah. Either PM each other or discuss this in the proper thread. It's confusing on what you are talking about and it's going off of the original discussion.
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Post by Chaotic Neutral on Dec 16, 2010 16:45:17 GMT -8
Right, back to the original discussion:
I know this might sound cruel, but has anyone else wondered why the hell Leah was even there? It may go in lines with my other thread more, but honestly, Leah was one of the main people I looked at in this series and had to ask "Why do you exist?" Her life was pretty much a cornucopia of pain and suffering--worse than ANYTHING Bella had to endure, and nothing came of it. No "finding of her true love" or "special purpose" or ANYTHING.
Hell, if you look at the Twilight page on TV tropes, they made a point of mentioning how EVERYONE had somebody and how EVERYONE had a soul mate or were paired off. Period. "Except Leah." I personally like that she didn't end up with anyone because she strikes me as a strong person I don't want to see fall into whatever zombie-like state everyone else is in...but still, what was Meyer's issue with her? It's like she couldn't NOT have something bad happen to this girl. Hell, even Lauren didn't suffer this much and Meyer expressed a severe dislike of her.
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Post by Elentari on Dec 16, 2010 16:59:12 GMT -8
Right, back to the original discussion: I know this might sound cruel, but has anyone else wondered why the hell Leah was even there? It may go in lines with my other thread more, but honestly, Leah was one of the main people I looked at in this series and had to ask "Why do you exist?" Her life was pretty much a cornucopia of pain and suffering--worse than ANYTHING Bella had to endure, and nothing came of it. No "finding of her true love" or "special purpose" or ANYTHING. Hell, if you look at the Twilight page on TV tropes, they made a point of mentioning how EVERYONE had somebody and how EVERYONE had a soul mate or were paired off. Period. "Except Leah." I personally like that she didn't end up with anyone because she strikes me as a strong person I don't want to see fall into whatever zombie-like state everyone else is in...but still, what was Meyer's issue with her? It's like she couldn't NOT have something bad happen to this girl. Hell, even Lauren didn't suffer this much and Meyer expressed a severe dislike of her. I think that the main point of her existing is because Meyer needed shifter characters so that the pack could look like a potential player on the so called board. Even she knows enough to understand that she can't just have several chardboard characters that have no backgrounds and have nothing happening to them at all (no matter how pointless that is). By making Leah go through all kinds of shit Meyer could create tension in the story and inside the pack, but failed to realize how pointless all that proved to be in the ending. Someone in this thread wondered if Leah was also Meyer's "bitch slap" on critics who denounce the series for not having strong female characters. It might be also that Meyer wanted to emphasize the tensions inside the pack to have contrast on Cullens who are generally supposed to be amicable. I agree that it's somewhat good that Leah did not get paired up. I think that would have only watered her down.
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Post by Anya the Purple on Dec 16, 2010 18:04:32 GMT -8
^I think SMeyer just wanted to say "See? Look at how equal it is, there's a girl in the pack!"
No matter her intentions, though, I'm glad Leah happened, because she's the one good character in the whole fucking Twiverse.
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blenderbender
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Post by blenderbender on Dec 16, 2010 18:34:09 GMT -8
Okay, sorry about the derailing guys. The things been settled.
I personally think Leah exsists for the same reason why I write fanfics. To torture some character. It's horrible, but some people just make up characters so they have someone to torture. Though, I admit, she may also be a "Fuck you" to critics.
Amen to that, Anya.
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Post by reniefuwa on Dec 16, 2010 19:04:41 GMT -8
Right, back to the original discussion: I know this might sound cruel, but has anyone else wondered why the hell Leah was even there? It may go in lines with my other thread more, but honestly, Leah was one of the main people I looked at in this series and had to ask "Why do you exist?" Her life was pretty much a cornucopia of pain and suffering--worse than ANYTHING Bella had to endure, and nothing came of it. No "finding of her true love" or "special purpose" or ANYTHING. Hell, if you look at the Twilight page on TV tropes, they made a point of mentioning how EVERYONE had somebody and how EVERYONE had a soul mate or were paired off. Period. "Except Leah." I personally like that she didn't end up with anyone because she strikes me as a strong person I don't want to see fall into whatever zombie-like state everyone else is in...but still, what was Meyer's issue with her? It's like she couldn't NOT have something bad happen to this girl. Hell, even Lauren didn't suffer this much and Meyer expressed a severe dislike of her. I think that the main point of her existing is because Meyer needed shifter characters so that the pack could look like a potential player on the so called board. Even she knows enough to understand that she can't just have several chardboard characters that have no backgrounds and have nothing happening to them at all (no matter how pointless that is). By making Leah go through all kinds of shit Meyer could create tension in the story and inside the pack, but failed to realize how pointless all that proved to be in the ending. Someone in this thread wondered if Leah was also Meyer's "bitch slap" on critics who denounce the series for not having strong female characters. It might be also that Meyer wanted to emphasize the tensions inside the pack to have contrast on Cullens who are generally supposed to be amicable. I agree that it's somewhat good that Leah did not get paired up. I think that would have only watered her down. Yeah, maybe Meyer saw the need for characters to suffer, but she didn't want any of her "pwecious snowfwakes" to have to do it, so she created a character to absorb all the suffering, you might say. Also, she failed to create actual conflict, because once again, all anyone does is talk about how there's conflict, but all we are shown are the other male werewolves being total dicks to Leah for very little reason (I can't say no reason, because they do have reasons, but none are good reasons).
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Post by Anya the Purple on Dec 16, 2010 20:25:27 GMT -8
^SMeyer throws "Show, don't tell" out the window. It bothers me to no end.
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Post by reniefuwa on Dec 16, 2010 20:31:57 GMT -8
^SMeyer throws "Show, don't tell" out the window. It bothers me to no end. Even worse, she opts for "tell one thing, show the exact opposite." I don't think she actually backs up anything she says, even when she shows AND tells. Though I have to admit, she was right when she said we didn't really understand Edward Cullen. She sure showed us, and scared the willies out of us in the process.
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limelightqueen
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Post by limelightqueen on Dec 16, 2010 23:37:00 GMT -8
The mean cynical part of me wants to say Meyer created Leah so that she could show girls the dangers of pre-marital sex- Leah and Sam are the only couple in the entire series who we know for a fact had pre-marital sex. Meyer probably wanted it to be a message like "don't let just anyone water your precious garden or else he might just turn around and discover he'd rather water your cousin/best friend's garden"
Because you just know Meyer uses cutesy euphemisms like that.
Another part wants to cut her the teeniest tiniest sliver of slack and say she wanted to make her books seem less sexist because there a girl in the wolf pack! Of course, we all know where roads of good intentions lead...
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