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Post by vampirekites on Nov 10, 2010 17:41:48 GMT -8
True, but I think a lot of her readers and fans just overlook it and focus on Edward and his perfect Adonis body. It says a lot about those who praise the superficial and yet don't criticize the obvious.
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Post by Vividus on Nov 10, 2010 20:23:45 GMT -8
True, but I think a lot of her readers and fans just overlook it and focus on Edward and his perfect Adonis body. It says a lot about those who praise the superficial and yet don't criticize the obvious. Definite yes on that. When I was a fan, I didn't notice anything negative because you don't want to hear it. But once I read Arzim's rebuttals, I was like, "DANG, THIS BOOK REALLY SUCKS." So yeah. It's like they're covering their eyes and ears. Anyways... Rosalie's dad is a banker. And her family was rich during the Great Depression. No one noticing the groups of tourists disappearing on Volterra or whatever it's called. Heidi wearing contacts. Bella not caring when Edward takes out her car's engine. I mean, she could at least be like, "HEY DAD, MY CAR BROKE DOWN, CAN YOU TAKE ME TO JACOB'S PLACE?"
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Post by Elentari on Nov 11, 2010 8:20:22 GMT -8
I have something to add on the conversation about blood:
When they were doing bloodtyping, Bella starts to feel so bad that she almost faints when Mike, who sat about on the other side of the room, got his finger pricked. If she is so sensitive when it comes to blood, how can she date a guy who drinks it? How could she not so long before bloodtyping, after the incident with Tyler's van, sit very near to Tyler, whose face was apparently almost slashed open? How can she go on stabbing herself in Eclipse and be just fine about the blood? And how on earth can she herself drink blood in Breaking Canon?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2010 12:43:53 GMT -8
Also, I have something that I don't really understand and it just bugs me.
So the Cullens said they didn't want to be vampires, that it is so "uncool", they hate their lifes and so on. At first I was like "Oh, they can't die, meh, deal with it!" but when Edward thinks Bella is ohlolnoez dead he flies to Volterra [that was the name, right?] to sparkle his a55 so he can be killed by The Almighty Awesome Bad Guyz Volturi. "Hmmm...killed...killed means dead, right?" If Edward and the others could kill themselves then why are they still alive if their lifes are so dissappointing? They could just sparkle in the middle of Volterra in some random day and end it once for all. :/ Or maybe I lost something on the way, but "Oh well we are uber duper amazing vampires! Let's just repeat highschool over and over and over <3 It seems like a good way to spend an eternity!" ...
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Post by Lady Phoenix on Nov 11, 2010 17:49:09 GMT -8
I have something to add on the conversation about blood: When they were doing bloodtyping, Bella starts to feel so bad that she almost faints when Mike, who sat about on the other side of the room, got his finger pricked. If she is so sensitive when it comes to blood, how can she date a guy who drinks it? How could she not so long before bloodtyping, after the incident with Tyler's van, sit very near to Tyler, whose face was apparently almost slashed open? How can she go on stabbing herself in Eclipse and be just fine about the blood? And how on earth can she herself drink blood in Breaking Canon? Because it was a "Plot Contrivance" or an "Asspull" It was just an excuse to make Bella all "damsel in distress" so that she can be hauled around by hot men.
It would have been a pretty cool flaw and conflict about whether or not she should date a bloodsucker and become one, but instead it's a Big Lipped Alligator Moment
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Post by stevelysteve on Nov 11, 2010 21:53:12 GMT -8
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Post by Blue Suede Shoes on Nov 11, 2010 22:09:23 GMT -8
I could pass for 14; I actually get mistaken for that age group. I'm 27. I just have youthful facial features and dress in a way that doesn't draw attention to my body shape. So I don't think it's impossible anyone could, I just think it's unlikely that all the Cullens happen to look young.
What I don't get is the point. Why do they need to tell anyone their ages in the first place? Once you get past high school, you don't really get asked your specific age unless you buy alcohol or cigarettes, or have to prove your identity for a new job, or something like that.
Why not just say they're young adults older than high school, and not spend so much time around people who might notice something amiss? Why not just spend the majority of their time on their own property? (I mean, even if it's boredom, they know all the high school material already; they'd be better off taking an online class or attending a college course in an field they haven't studied yet.) Going to high school at all doesn't make sense on a lot of levels.
The high school thing seems like a contrivance to get Edward and Bella together, but there are all kinds of ways it could happen without the stretches needed to make a school ploy by the Cullens work.
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Post by Elentari on Nov 12, 2010 7:27:27 GMT -8
I remember Jessica saying that they had been in Forks about two, three years. If they had been there that long, Ed would have been about 14-15 (according to their cover story), and others not much older. People who are 17 years old can't really pass as a person who is 14. The young of that age can look really childlike.
Not so. It's a bit of a stretch, but it's certainly doable, depending on the person, of course. I'm 17 years old and I am constantly mistaken for a freshman/14 year old, but that is simply because I've always looked a bit young for my age. It actually makes a tiny bit of sense for the Cullen family to start somewhere young because when you see somebody every day, you tend not to notice how much older they look (or would not look) unless you spend a lot of time away from them.
However, it is true that it would be difficult for a lot of people of the Cullens' ages to pass for someone so young. If I remember correctly, Alice was 19 when she was turned into a sparklepire and she was in the same grade as Edward and Bella, so she would be pretending to be about 17-18. But Alice has always been described as tiny and delicate-looking, so she could potentially pass as much younger I would think. But Edward is over 6 feet tall and...well...let's just say I wouldn't believe Robert Pattinson was a 14 year old for one second.Yeah, I agree that some people can look really young when they're in their twenties, but on the other hand, Ed can apparently pass as a college student. That's why I think him pretending to be 14-15 sounds a bit weird, because it sounds impossible me to have that kind of facial features that would let one pass as any age between 14 and twenty-something. Also, even if the person's facial features don't become more mature with age, you'd think they would still grow at least a little. He's not the shortest guy, either. Sure, people of 14 can be tall, but still. And what about all that muscle tissue they're supposed to have? His not-siblings are pretty unchanging too (Bella once commented that Jasper and Emmett looked like they could be college students, so I find it hard to believe that they could pass as high school juniors), so you'd think that this bunch of people who never change would catch someone's eye eventually. On the other hand, when ever did these twats even try to blend in? I still think that it would've been much smarter to place the story in some other setting than in high school. It doesn't really work, if you ask me (although that is really the smallest of the problems with this series).
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Post by queencherryfairy on Nov 12, 2010 8:47:36 GMT -8
Not to mention hundreds of girls on their periods! (Oh, wait. DEAD BLOOD. I forgot about that. )
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2010 11:23:48 GMT -8
I have something to add on the conversation about blood: When they were doing bloodtyping, Bella starts to feel so bad that she almost faints when Mike, who sat about on the other side of the room, got his finger pricked. If she is so sensitive when it comes to blood, how can she date a guy who drinks it? How could she not so long before bloodtyping, after the incident with Tyler's van, sit very near to Tyler, whose face was apparently almost slashed open? How can she go on stabbing herself in Eclipse and be just fine about the blood? And how on earth can she herself drink blood in Breaking Canon? Because it was a "Plot Contrivance" or an "Asspull" It was just an excuse to make Bella all "damsel in distress" so that she can be hauled around by hot men.
It would have been a pretty cool flaw and conflict about whether or not she should date a bloodsucker and become one, but instead it's a Big Lipped Alligator MomentI always thought she woul use that scene and Bella's aversion to blood as a way to explain her super specialness when she was a vampire. Like, I don't know, the aversion was so great that she carried it on to her vampire being, it got amplified as a trait and that would be why she was so good at controlling her thirst right from the beginning. I don't know, it just sounds to me much more logical than the whole: she chose to be a vampire, no one had ever do that, she was mentally prepared for the thirst bullshit.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2010 11:59:11 GMT -8
Also, I have something that I don't really understand and it just bugs me. So the Cullens said they didn't want to be vampires, that it is so "uncool", they hate their lifes and so on. At first I was like "Oh, they can't die, meh, deal with it!" but when Edward thinks Bella is ohlolnoez dead he flies to Volterra [that was the name, right?] to sparkle his a55 so he can be killed by The Almighty Awesome Bad Guyz Volturi. "Hmmm...killed...killed means dead, right?" If Edward and the others could kill themselves then why are they still alive if their lifes are so dissappointing? They could just sparkle in the middle of Volterra in some random day and end it once for all. :/ Or maybe I lost something on the way, but "Oh well we are uber duper amazing vampires! Let's just repeat highschool over and over and over <3 It seems like a good way to spend an eternity!" ... They hate being vampires because it's so terrible and damned and souless and thirst and eternity and boring but humans are stupid, worthless, useless, bland, boring sheep and yet vampires are superior in every way but humans have it so much better. So what is it, huh? WHAT DO YOU FUCKING WANT? Make up your goddamn minds already! Meyer is the oldest teenage emo, ever. We must be miserable in every way possible!!1!21!1 Edit. I thought about my post for 5 seconds and realised that her characters are always complaining and whinning about something. Seriously, they're never happy. So, she really is the oldest whiny teenage emo ever.
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Post by Elentari on Nov 12, 2010 12:31:28 GMT -8
Because it was a "Plot Contrivance" or an "Asspull" It was just an excuse to make Bella all "damsel in distress" so that she can be hauled around by hot men.
It would have been a pretty cool flaw and conflict about whether or not she should date a bloodsucker and become one, but instead it's a Big Lipped Alligator MomentI always thought she woul use that scene and Bella's aversion to blood as a way to explain her super specialness when she was a vampire. Like, I don't know, the aversion was so great that she carried it on to her vampire being, it got amplified as a trait and that would be why she was so good at controlling her thirst right from the beginning. I don't know, it just sounds to me much more logical than the whole: she chose to be a vampire, no one had ever do that, she was mentally prepared for the thirst bullshit. That confuses me a little, since Meyer made such a huge deal about how crazy and uncontrollable the newborns are supposed to be. Her characters were always whining how hard it was to reject the thirst. And just take the change they go through; their basic biology is completely changed, they get enormous physical powers and speed... You'd think there would be at least some difficulties in mastering skills like that. It would be more believable if they were constantly breaking things or moving too fast. It was just so implausible for me when Bella could control herself so well and everyone was marveling how good she was. I wanted her to become crazy and fail and hurt people and then realize what she had gotten herself into, at least for a moment. Furthermore, isn't it irritating how they constantly insisting how thirsty the newborns are, yet we never get to see that madness? They're supposed to be so uncontrollable, yet older pixies can create whole armies and keep them in line just like that. It takes all the tension away.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2010 12:45:34 GMT -8
I always thought she woul use that scene and Bella's aversion to blood as a way to explain her super specialness when she was a vampire. Like, I don't know, the aversion was so great that she carried it on to her vampire being, it got amplified as a trait and that would be why she was so good at controlling her thirst right from the beginning. I don't know, it just sounds to me much more logical than the whole: she chose to be a vampire, no one had ever do that, she was mentally prepared for the thirst bullshit. That confuses me a little, since Meyer made such a huge deal about how crazy and uncontrollable the newborns are supposed to be. Her characters were always whining how hard it was to reject the thirst. And just take the change they go through; their basic biology is completely changed, they get enormous physical powers and speed... You'd think there would be at least some difficulties in mastering skills like that. It would be more believable if they were constantly breaking things or moving too fast. It was just so implausible for me when Bella could control herself so well and everyone was marveling how good she was. I wanted her to become crazy and fail and hurt people and then realize what she had gotten herself into, at least for a moment. Furthermore, isn't it irritating how they constantly insisting how thirsty the newborns are, yet we never get to see that madness? They're supposed to be so uncontrollable, yet older pixies can create whole armies and keep them in line just like that. It takes all the tension away. Exactly! The newborns were the biggest disappointment and faux-hype EVOR, right after the Vulturi. The Bree Tanner book just fucked the whole newborn craze thing. They weren't crazy, they were just morons. As it turns out, the Cullens are just huge drama queens and Jasper is just incredibly weak willed because, apparently, the newborn phase and the thirst aren't so bad after all. I hate this "saga"
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Catalpa
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A full minute of stunned silence means "My God, what did you do?" not "Please continue."[Mo0:0]
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Post by Catalpa on Nov 12, 2010 12:47:12 GMT -8
Any and all plotholes may be explained by two facts: Meyer wished them to be that way and doesn't have the writing skills to pull it off in an uncontrived manner.
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Post by Avocados :D on Nov 12, 2010 15:35:03 GMT -8
Speaking of sparkling in Volterra... who in their right mind would assume that Edward was a vampire?
And couldn't Edward just, like... set himself on fire? He really needs to piss off a bunch of other vampires to die like that?
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Post by Elentari on Nov 12, 2010 16:26:33 GMT -8
Speaking of sparkling in Volterra... who in their right mind would assume that Edward was a vampire? And couldn't Edward just, like... set himself on fire? He really needs to piss off a bunch of other vampires to die like that? A fan tried to say that of course something bad would have followed after the sparklecide, since apparently people would have gathered around Ed to try and touch him, which would show to them that him sparkling is not because of glitter or that it's not just some light-show. How this would have indicated that he is a vampire still remains a mystery.
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Sassley
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Post by Sassley on Nov 12, 2010 17:19:44 GMT -8
Bella and Edward being on the west coast of Brazil bothers me way more than it should. I'm in tenth grade and it took me less than thirty seconds to double check if Brazil had a west coast or not, how come SMeyer couldn't. Here's a better question, what kind of editor would let something so stupid pass?Every time I point this out to the friends I have who are into Twilight, they completely ignore me. So basically, ignorance is bliss! SMeyer has taken totally rational people and made them believe in her stupid lovemonkey drivel to the point that geographical errors are "no big deal"...it makes me crazy that she tries to pass herself off as being "scientific", yet has no interest in historical or geographical context. She's lazy and focuses only on the romance. She thought since the "less important" details of her story didn't matter to her, they wouldn't matter to anyone else.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2010 19:34:37 GMT -8
My problem is durring Jasper's "attack" after the paper cut. Edward pushes Bella into a table or something right? and she ends up needing stitches i think its been a while. Anyways what was Edward thinking?!?! "Hmm...Bella has a paper cut...Jasper wants to attack her...what should I do...I know I will make her bleed more!"
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Post by Blue Suede Shoes on Nov 12, 2010 19:55:37 GMT -8
My problem is durring Jasper's "attack" after the paper cut. Edward pushes Bella into a table or something right? and she ends up needing stitches i think its been a while. Anyways what was Edward thinking?!?! "Hmm...Bella has a paper cut...Jasper wants to attack her...what should I do...I know I will make her bleed more!" I don't understand why Edward made physical contact with Bella at all. Why not just focus all his effort on helping restrain Jasper? Maybe the scene was just poorly described and it's something to do with how Meyer imagines the furniture was placed, but how would pushing Bella aside or to the floor help? It seems like throwing her off balance would just complicate things, even if he hadn't made her bleed more. If all the Cullens except Carlisle had just quietly bundled Jasper and themselves out of the room, everything would have been fine. People act weird in emergencies, but you'd think given how hard they've worked on control, they would have prepared and practiced for this kind of situation.
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Post by thewizardofoz on Nov 13, 2010 7:34:26 GMT -8
A fan tried to say that of course something bad would have followed after the sparklecide, since apparently people would have gathered around Ed to try and touch himAnyway, now that I have finished my hysterics... What bothers me about the appropriately named "sparklecide" is why the Volturi would care if one of their 'pires offed themselves. The way I look at it, the crowd at the St. Marcus Parade would torch the bastard before they do anything. Then, when the Italian police move out, that would give the Volturi an excellent opportunity to come out of hiding by killing the police and armies and eventually take over the world. You'd think they'd consider Edward's suicide a godsend, and maybe even ask him themselves to do it. But no. Exposure is bad; never mind the Volturi's passive-agressive techniques between wanting to protect and kill humans, and even their own species, at the same time.
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Post by aealo on Nov 13, 2010 8:59:00 GMT -8
What about Carlisle's College Degree? Those things have a date on them. He can't use one from the 1800s to get a job today.
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Sassley
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Post by Sassley on Nov 13, 2010 9:21:37 GMT -8
Zombilicious - I hate to defend this stupid series, but I think that is explained a couple of times - and if not definitely in the final book, when J. Jenks (the lawyer) comes into play and gives Bella false identities for Jacob and Renesmee. If he can do that, I'm sure he can obtain false degrees etc. for Carlisle.
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Post by Blue Suede Shoes on Nov 13, 2010 13:00:15 GMT -8
Also, in the movie-- I can't remember if this happens in the books-- when Edward, Bella, and Alice are leaving the Volturi's chamber, a group of tourists is led into the chamber behind them, and we hear the resulting screams. (Bella seems briefly concerned but has forgotten them by the next scene; Bella has no empathy so what was I expecting?)
Now remember, this is a large group of people, and they're clean and well-dressed. They're clearly intended to be tourists, not the homeless or addicts or runaways or other people who sadly often fall through the cracks of society. These are people with at least enough money and stability to travel for leisure, and who will presumably be expected home at some point.
How is Edward going out in the sunlight and sparkling-- which most people are likely to assume is the work of a good makeup artist rather than the mark of a vampire-- more dangerous to the secrecy of the vampire world than a mass disappearance of tourists? Aren't people going to wonder when these people just don't come home? This doesn't seem to be a first time event or something spur of the moment, either; they have a routine, so apparently the Volturi are doing this regularly.
It may be that the Volturi are just dumb/crazy, but if they're making mistakes that serious, how are they still in power?
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Post by Corporal Flashback on Nov 13, 2010 13:11:08 GMT -8
Also, in the movie-- I can't remember if this happens in the books-- when Edward, Bella, and Alice are leaving the Volturi's chamber, a group of tourists is led into the chamber behind them, and we hear the resulting screams. (Bella seems briefly concerned but has forgotten them by the next scene; Bella has no empathy so what was I expecting?) Now remember, this is a large group of people, and they're clean and well-dressed. They're clearly intended to be tourists, not the homeless or addicts or runaways or other people who sadly often fall through the cracks of society. These are people with at least enough money and stability to travel for leisure, and who will presumably be expected home at some point. How is Edward going out in the sunlight and sparkling-- which most people are likely to assume is the work of a good makeup artist rather than the mark of a vampire-- more dangerous to the secrecy of the vampire world than a mass disappearance of tourists? Aren't people going to wonder when these people just don't come home? This doesn't seem to be a first time event or something spur of the moment, either; they have a routine, so apparently the Volturi are doing this regularly. It may be that the Volturi are just dumb/crazy, but if they're making mistakes that serious, how are they still in power? Like someone said on Frozen Apples, Aro is dumber than a sackful of hammers. It took the Volturi a freaking month to get from Italy to Forks, and all his problems could have been solved in New Moon by killing Bella, hopefully slowly and painfully. There are many opportunities for Bella to die in the books, Aro has the best chance and he fucks it up. Fo shame, Volturi, fo shame.
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Post by thewizardofoz on Nov 13, 2010 13:15:54 GMT -8
Also, in the movie-- I can't remember if this happens in the books-- when Edward, Bella, and Alice are leaving the Volturi's chamber, a group of tourists is led into the chamber behind them, and we hear the resulting screams. (Bella seems briefly concerned but has forgotten them by the next scene; Bella has no empathy so what was I expecting?) Now remember, this is a large group of people, and they're clean and well-dressed. They're clearly intended to be tourists, not the homeless or addicts or runaways or other people who sadly often fall through the cracks of society. These are people with at least enough money and stability to travel for leisure, and who will presumably be expected home at some point. How is Edward going out in the sunlight and sparkling-- which most people are likely to assume is the work of a good makeup artist rather than the mark of a vampire-- more dangerous to the secrecy of the vampire world than a mass disappearance of tourists? Aren't people going to wonder when these people just don't come home? This doesn't seem to be a first time event or something spur of the moment, either; they have a routine, so apparently the Volturi are doing this regularly. It may be that the Volturi are just dumb/crazy, but if they're making mistakes that serious, how are they still in power? That's a good question, and can be explained with The Anachronism Clause. Anachronism is usually found in bad movies or writing when the screenwriter/author shows a scene, and a following conversation occurs. Screenwriter/Author: Look at my characters doing stupendous, earth-bending things! Aren't they awesome! Film/Book Critic: But how does that fit into the plot and/or character arc? Screenwriter/Author: Simple! When you get into it, it basically writes itself. Which means everything neatly ties together in a nice, round bow in a silver box.
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Post by thewizardofoz on Nov 13, 2010 13:21:20 GMT -8
Like someone said on Frozen Apples, Aro is dumber than a sackful of hammers. I couldn't have said it myself. Nicely put. Apparently, it took them three months, but with air travel, they'd be there in days, and if they used ship/train, it would only take two or so weeks. If they used a car the whole way (that is, if they drove underwater across the Atlantic), it might take them years. ...Apparently, Aro called Bella's blood (for Edward) "la tua cantante", and since that's how he got Selpuchia, he can sympathize with Edward, and possibly Bella since he knows she'll be his new love-slave? I dunno. ( thumbs-up) Well, you see, the Volturi don't think logically like you and I. Their brains are hard-wired on old mattress plugs and carburetors. Meyer intentionally fucked them up since she's an idiot herself, so since she's exempt from logic, her mind is, so her imagination is, and thus, her book series is.
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Post by Corporal Flashback on Nov 13, 2010 13:33:17 GMT -8
Holy shit. That's worse than I thought. Way to create tension, Meyer.
So does that excuse the Cullens breaking the rules? And them being so lax on following up whether Bella is still human? I'd have liked to skip Eclipse and gone straight to Breaking Dawn, since Eclipse offers next to no development in plot, and it would make up for the large gap between Bella meeting the Volturi and them suddenly realising they owed the Cullens a visit.
The Volturi could have been a good villain, the vampires version of a Rules Lawyer, but they're ineffectual everything they do.
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Post by Lady Phoenix on Nov 13, 2010 13:42:07 GMT -8
Apparently, it took them three months, but with air travel, they'd be there in days, and if they used ship/train, it would only take two or so weeks. If they used a car the whole way, it might take them years. Here's the problem: YOU CAN'T DRIVE FROM ITALY TO AMERICA There's a huge ocean that prevents any sort of vehicular transportation between those 2 countries. If it was by plane, it would only take maybe 2-3 days to arrive in Washington. Unless they boarded a plane but landed it in NEW YORK (which is absolutely STUPID because it is so far away from Washington) instead of California (which should only take maybe a day or 2 to drive up there). Unless they were lallygagging in Italy for most of the supposed "3 Month Period", there should be absolutely no way they could not make it in Forks in lesser time.
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Post by Blue Suede Shoes on Nov 13, 2010 13:52:12 GMT -8
So does that excuse the Cullens breaking the rules? And them being so lax on following up whether Bella is still human? I'd have liked to skip Eclipse and gone straight to Breaking Dawn, since Eclipse offers next to no development in plot, and it would make up for the large gap between Bella meeting the Volturi and them suddenly realising they owed the Cullens a visit. There are no second chances. Except there totally are if you're special enough, and the contradiction won't even be noticed by the characters. I think that's one of the major problems with this series, actually. Characters other than Bella, the Cullens, and some of the werewolves are nothing more than plot devices. (So basically you're a plot device if you're not a wish fulfillment.) Meyer doesn't seem to understand that a character who isn't in focus still needs to act in a coherent way, and that the same moral standards need to apply to everybody. In a coherent world, those tourists who don't happen to matter to Bella would still have family and friends who care about them and worry when they don't come home. In a coherent world, giving the excuse of going to college in Alaska wouldn't be enough to explain away a mother and father never seeing their supposedly-loved daughter again. In a coherent world, Bree Tanner's life would have as much inherent value as Bella Swan's, and if a battle to the death to save one of them resulted in the casual murder of the other, someone would at least notice that they hadn't behaved in a consistent way even if the outcome didn't change. But Bella is special and her life matters more than anything else. The Cullens and the wolves come second. No one else is even on the agenda, and people Bella doesn't interact with or notice aren't even treated as fully human by the text. That fact is actually even more starkly obvious in the movies, because when you can actually see it for yourself, the narration can't excuse it away. In Twilight, people have value-- or no value-- in relation to Bella and/or the Cullens, not as the default by virtue of just being people. And that's why I hate this series so damn much!
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Catalpa
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A full minute of stunned silence means "My God, what did you do?" not "Please continue."[Mo0:0]
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Post by Catalpa on Nov 13, 2010 14:00:13 GMT -8
Maybe the Volturi walked/ran all the way to Forks from Italy. But they could only travel by night and had to avoid all major human settlements to avoid detection. And they got the directions off of Mapquest *badum-tish*.
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