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Post by Lady Phoenix on Dec 5, 2010 13:28:26 GMT -8
@phoenix. True, and it would tie in with James. If it was written as a regular 3rd person story, and not Bella's POV, we'd be wary of Edward's intentions. This could ultimately be the actual conflict of the story. Instead, we're supposed to see Edward in a good light, and since there was no actual conflict, James and The Gang were tacked on as a last minute protagonist.
@limelight. One should never assume about another person's actions, especially if one is a highly skilled tracker vampire. That whole plan was flawed from the get go. Still, it would make James more important and not tacked on. Or better yet, have a minion of James attack Bella, fight Edward come back, the James wants revenge for Edward messing with his posse.
We can come up with better solutions than Meyer ever could
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Post by vampirekites on Dec 5, 2010 13:31:47 GMT -8
I modified my post and added that James could be the real conflict, and Edward would be a red herring.
and yes, because we're actually taking the time, using logic, and comparing ideas to make better solutions instead of relying on tropes, misconceptions and ass pull.
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Post by Blue Suede Shoes on Dec 5, 2010 13:47:57 GMT -8
I have another, not plot hole exactly but a lack of logic hole. In the climax of Twilight they all decide to go to Phoenix because they think that'll be the last place James would ever look. Because they figure that he would never expect them to go to them place they said they were going to. Here's the flaw in that plan: if he figures that out he knows exactly where you are. Whereas if they had said they were going to Phoenix and instead went to say, Milwaukee, he has no way of knowing that. All he knows if that they aren't in Phoenix. Yeah, I don't see how the benefits of the Phoenix plan outweigh the risks of James figuring it out. Even if James assumes that they wouldn't go to Phoenix and they actually don't, so he's correct about one thing... he can't search every city and town in the world at the same time. Wouldn't it be more logical to pick someplace random where Bella has no emotional connection? I mean what are the odds he'd pick that random place out of the whole world to start his search? Whereas Phoenix should at least be on the short list of areas to check even if it's not the first guess, since it's already on the radar.
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Post by vampirekites on Dec 5, 2010 15:23:11 GMT -8
^Exactly. He'd go there just to make sure they weren't bluffing. Plus, Bella being an idiot and for some reason Alice not being able to hear James on the phone, despite the fact that they can hear stuff miles away.
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gisbon
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Post by gisbon on Dec 5, 2010 16:31:58 GMT -8
I would like to take the time to address the IM A VAMPIRE SO I CAN SPEED FREELY thing. Im going to start off with a basic explanation of how drifting works. Drifting is completly uncontrollable, regardless of the movies, and the only thing that is slightly changeable is the way your tires are facing, which can cause issues depending on the width of your tires. Now, drifting is basically your cars momentum pushing you against the way your tires are facing and pulling with the engine, and the more Torque you have coming of the tires at the time your drifting, the worse it will become until your spinning out of control and off a cliff. Also, Weight factors in heavily to this, insofar that lighter cars drift easier but are easier to stop when your in a drift, while heavy cars are harder to get into a slide, but go apeshit once they are actually in one. Since Edward drives a Volvo ( This also pisses me off, if they can afford lamborghini's and Porches, whys he driving a fucking volvo? Thats like Bill gates buying a Geo Metro. IT MAKES NO SENSE.) we can assume two things: 1. His car is heavy. 2. His engine is around 300 Hp ( I looked this up, since the book said it was a S60R, and im going by that, but holy shit that was unexpected.) and has 295 Lb's of Torque.
Now, the 2005 S60Rs have only standard wheels, so you can assume that it will slide around like normal. So what's basically happening is that he's going around these turns at 90+ and breaking every law of physics known to man, since this car is pretty much standard. As to the people claiming his reflexes save that, your reflexes are not jesus. They do not stop a speeding car's momentum. This probably doesn't make any sense, but I hope it does.
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Post by vampirekites on Dec 5, 2010 16:41:23 GMT -8
Just because YOU have the fast reflexes doesn't mean the car also have these magical mechanics. Plus, even though it's a small town, I'm sure there's traffic to and from the town, especially if most people go to Seattle either for work, a shopping trip or whatever business. Most people prefer going to a big city since everything you need is there, where as a small town might not. These people cannot know that a vampire is driving a Volvo (which is probably the lamest type of car a vampire can drive. Inconspicuous? Yes, but it's still lame) at breakneck speeds and conveniently avoiding other cars.
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Post by Lady Phoenix on Dec 5, 2010 16:50:38 GMT -8
No, you're right.
Just because he's a vampire and he can control HIS speed DOESN'T mean he can control the speed of his goddamn car. Bella probably would be dead by the first book because Edward would do something stupid and Bella would be out to window with glass in her face.
And let's not forget the cops and their spedometers. Edward may be able to read the COP'S mind, but not the device since it has no mind. There fore the cop WILL notice Edward's speed and chase him.
In short, Edward is a vehicular madman that is breaking laws and should be caught for it -- by cops or by physics.
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Post by Blue Suede Shoes on Dec 5, 2010 17:01:01 GMT -8
Yeah, it doesn't matter how much faster than normal you react if your car can't react equally fast-- and the laws of physics say cars can't react instantly.
Also, I too am puzzled about how reading the cops' minds would help. 90% of a police officer's thoughts while on routine duty probably wouldn't be any different than anyone else. Unless they sit around repeatedly thinking "We're the police, we're the police, we're the police..." which isn't really how the human mind works. I'm skeptical that Edward would be able to detect the police reliably and quickly enough to avoid them, even with the mind reading.
Also, even if he can avoid the police themselves, another motorist could call the police about his reckless driving. How on earth would he get around that? There would be no distinguishing thoughts at all until it was too late to do anything.
I agree with the rest of you-- the whole situation makes no sense.
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Post by vampirekites on Dec 5, 2010 17:17:45 GMT -8
It's more "The universe works according to SMeyer" crap to get around these specific scenarios in order to make room to describe Edward's Adonis body.
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gisbon
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Post by gisbon on Dec 5, 2010 17:27:46 GMT -8
It's more "The universe works according to SMeyer" crap to get around these specific scenarios in order to make room to describe Edward's Adonis body. Thats true, to the point of a volvo. WTF? The s60r in the book was badass, but the one he drove in the film was a MINIVAN. GIVE HIM A 67 GTO, GIVE HIM SOMETHING CCCCOOOOOOLLLL. LESTAT HAD A HARLEY. BEAT THAT SMEYER.
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Post by Lady Phoenix on Dec 5, 2010 17:29:54 GMT -8
It's more "The universe works according to SMeyer" crap to get around these specific scenarios in order to make room to describe Edward's Adonis body. In short, logic flies out the window for virgin smut. The problem is that there's too MUCH logic flying out the window for virgin smut and it turn Meyer's books into Swiss Cheese
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Catalpa
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Post by Catalpa on Dec 5, 2010 18:59:23 GMT -8
Building on the whole van incident and the rape of physics...
There's no freaking way that Edward could use one hand to stop a speeding van, no matter how strong he was. The surface area over which the stopping force is distributed is less than a foot square. All that would happen would be that Edward's arm would be buried shoulder-deep in the car's innards.
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SoulOverSmile
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Post by SoulOverSmile on Dec 5, 2010 21:46:40 GMT -8
In Breaking Dawn: Edward and Bella spend their honeymoon on the Isle Esme or whatever, a peice of island Carslie bought some time ago (1)(2). While there, Edward and Bella go swimming and Edward ends up holding her in his arms in the rather deep waters as they float about (3).
1. Excuse, what the fuck Carslie?
I thought your whole goal as a vampire was trying to blend in with the humans in order to protect your identities all the while. Buying an island, giving it as a gift to your wife to own without any mentions of doing it under fake identities is the complete opposite of what.
Why do you even need to buy your 'simple' wife a bloody isle? What? Cozy cottages in the snowy mountains aren't good enough for you anymore or something? Couldn't you have used the money to donate it to those with cancer and all that shit? Some compassion you've got. Your powers must be going sour.
2. How rich are you, anyways Carslie? Buying an island is not cheap, and you lived for... what? A few hundred years at best? No way in hell could you have made enough money to buy the isle. Even with Alice's apparent use on the stock market (this has been mentioned so many times, I won't bother to expand on this). Or with Rosalie and Edward's fortunes. Unless you did it in dishonest means. Bad doctor, bad!
3. Edward is repeatedly said to be Adonis, glittering, gem-like, cold, white marble stone and has the same density of it as well.
Apparently. He also bemoans he could easily crush her (Bella's) skull if he's not careful because he has to control his amazing strength it all the time. Romantic talk aside, he keeps bitching about it through out the series that we're sick and tired of it. But we know this already, so yeah. Moving on...
So when they go to the beach and into the water, naturally he'll need to use more force in order to stay afloat due to his weight and density. That means he's using his strength now in order to do this. Alright, that makes sense. But then he gathers delicate, blown glass Bella into his arms without her suddenly snapping into two (much to our dismay). That means he's... he's what? No longer using his enhanced strength?
But then we learn in the next scene they ended up making out in the waters, like the horny teenagers they are, and he was so wild with desires that he ended up leaving broken shit around in their room that they moved into earlier that night. So he did lost control... but not in the most obvious scenario that's given to us because that would kill the 'plot' and 'romance'.
Wow, SMeyer, wow.
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exquisite corpse
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Post by exquisite corpse on Dec 6, 2010 15:12:32 GMT -8
Bella and Edward being on the west coast of Brazil bothers me way more than it should. I'm in tenth grade and it took me less than thirty seconds to double check if Brazil had a west coast or not, how come SMeyer couldn't. That amuses me way more than it should.
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Post by Elentari on Dec 7, 2010 5:28:14 GMT -8
About Ed's driving habits: What about the fact that he seems to drive like a maniac also during the daylight, when someone would and should notice him speeding and report him? And it's not really that safe to drive fast and keep glancing at your passenger. Take the scene where they're driving back from Port Angeles - he's almost like staring at Bella all the time, although there could be just about anything on the road (a fallen tree, a stray animal, a car accident, police...).
I'm a bit late with the James discussion, but anyway: the whole incident is incredibly stupid. I mean, it's seven against three - that really doesn't sound like a serious threat. But the moment James and co. appear Cullens start to run around like headless chickens. And then Bella is all angsting how they're surely gonna die, because two bloodlusty meyerpires with no special skills to benefit them in a fight are going after her! What about the mind-reader she dates? The experienced soldier who can control emotions? A seer who can predict all the enemy's movements? And none of them considers even for a second what kind of an impact it has that they're such chickens. Just think about all those lives Victoria destroys just because Cullens are idiots.
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Post by Blue Suede Shoes on Dec 7, 2010 14:05:42 GMT -8
This is more of a character-motivations-hole than a plothole per se, but I find it strange that Jacob continues to pursue Bella with equal tenacity even though he knows that 1.) imprinting exists, 2.) imprinting is powerful enough to tear apart an established couple, having witnessed the effects of the Sam/Emily/Leah fiasco, and 3.) although he has a strong attraction to her, he has not imprinted on Bella.
I mean for all he is in some ways a better potential boyfriend than Edward is, it seems like any commitment he might make is a promise he can't keep. He talks about how Edward could hurt Bella-- which is true-- but no one seems too worried about the very serious way in which he could hurt Bella too.
Any promise Jacob makes to Bella is by definition probably temporary, and no matter how much willpower he exerts, he will be unable to stop himself from leaving her for someone else when the time comes. That seems like a pretty big elephant in the room getting overlooked.
Weirdly, this hole could have been avoided very easily, even keeping the creepy concept of imprinting intact. Meyer could have had Jacob scoff at the idea of imprinting and think it was just a self-deluding excuse, until he experienced it himself. She could have had Jacob mistake his strong feelings for imprinting, and not realize the difference until he actually experienced the real thing. She could have had Jacob know very little about imprinting and put the infodump in the mouth of a different character, so Jacob could genuinely think it might work out with Bella. And so on.
The existence of this hole seems to be sheer laziness.
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Post by vampirekites on Dec 7, 2010 14:44:42 GMT -8
@james plot hole. Wouldn't it also be easier to kill Victoria right away? I mean, if they knew they were mates, it wouldn't be too far fetch to think she might get revenge for James' death or that she too would want to kill Bella for her awesomesauce blood.
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Post by Blue Suede Shoes on Dec 7, 2010 14:53:51 GMT -8
I'm a bit late with the James discussion, but anyway: the whole incident is incredibly stupid. I mean, it's seven against three - that really doesn't sound like a serious threat. But the moment James and co. appear Cullens start to run around like headless chickens. And then Bella is all angsting how they're surely gonna die, because two bloodlusty meyerpires with no special skills to benefit them in a fight are going after her! What about the mind-reader she dates? The experienced soldier who can control emotions? A seer who can predict all the enemy's movements? And none of them considers even for a second what kind of an impact it has that they're such chickens. Just think about all those lives Victoria destroys just because Cullens are idiots. Yeah, I've never really understood why the Cullens think it's better to scatter and split up than to face James-- or even the trio-- head on. Surely the odds are in their favour? I mean yeah, there are excuses about how strong the trio are, but whenever we see those vampires fight individually they go down fairly easily even when not so outnumbered. So... why not just fight in the first place? The Cullens fairly consistently choose really weird moments to give up. I don't get it. I think the point is to make the threats seem more fearsome, but it really just makes the Cullens seem cowardly and inefficient.
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Alice (PMD)
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Post by Alice (PMD) on Dec 7, 2010 18:32:47 GMT -8
I think the biggest plothole is the Cullens assuming that if someone dies or they accidentally do something weird happens that everyone'll assume that they're vampires. I mean, come on, who the hell would look at a murder and then think, 'Hmm, the Cullens must be vampires!'? If one of them slips up, they immediately move. Them moving away so quickly would be the biggest clue that the murder had something to do with them.
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Post by Blue Suede Shoes on Dec 7, 2010 18:45:01 GMT -8
The Cullens definitely think a strange selection of things would give their secret away, while other more obvious things are overlooked. For example, Rosalie doesn't drive her car to school very often because people might start to suspect something is up. Um... what? The Cullens aren't hiding the fact that they're fabulously wealthy, so it's not like they're concerned people will wonder how they had time and means to acquire it all. Why would it specifically be a sign of vampirism for one of the daughters to drive a nice sports car? Yet there's very little concern about rumoured incest between the "siblings" who act a little too close for comfort... which to me would seem to draw a lot more unwanted attention to their unusual living arrangements. People have noticed that the Cullens skip school on sunny days, but no one in the family seems worried about that either. They could either play the role of young adults and not go to school at all, or skip some cloudy days too so it doesn't seem like a pattern... but no, they just act obvious about avoiding sunlight. No one will suspect they're vampires as long as no one drives a sports car after all! *sigh* Them moving away so quickly would be the biggest clue that the murder had something to do with them. Yeah, that's like pasting a "This relates to us!" sign on the crime. I get that they wouldn't want too many 'accidents' to happen in the same area, so moving from time to time makes sense. It just seems like it would make more sense to express shock and disbelief along with everyone else, play it cool and give it a few months, then come up with a plausible unrelated reason to move. It would be less suspicious if the timing wasn't so close. Moving right away makes them look as guilty as possible.
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Post by watersheerie on Dec 9, 2010 19:19:16 GMT -8
I always had an issue with Alice's already shady power not working around the were-wolves. A Twifan gave me two rather hilarious reasons for this: 1) Were-wolves aren't humans or vampires and as such their minds and thought-processes are very alien to Alice, therefore she can't see their future or any future around them. 2) Alice can only see the future regarding humans and vampires because she is a vampire and was once human, therefore since she has never been a were-wolf she can't see their future. To this I asked simply: How come Edward can read the Meyerwolves' minds? Alice's power is the only one that doesn't work on the Meyerwolves. Edward can read the 'oh so alien' wolf minds just fine. In my opinion, reading the mind of another alien creature would be more difficult then simply seeing the future. The Twifan tried to argue that Alice's power is more dependent on going inside the minds of others.... Yeah, it's as if said Twifan does not understand the very meaning of ' Mind Reading.' Edward also has never been a Meyerwolf. There appears to be such a huge difference in minds between Meyerwolves and Meyerpyres, so vast that it keeps the resident psychic/deus ex machina from seeing not just the wolves' futures, but any future surrounding the vicinity of the wolves. If Alice can't see the wolves' futures, how come Edward can still read their minds? It would have been cool if none of the Meyerpyres' powers could work on the wolves, it would have given the wolves an edge and a weakness to the Meyerpyres. But Meyer couldn't bear to give any sort of weakness to her beloved Gary Stue, yet at the same time she needed Alice to be unable to see Bella when around Jacob in order to set off the poorly constructed chain of events in New Doom/Moon. There is no reason why Alice's power shouldn't work around the wolves when Edward's power functions just fine. This plothole is especially irritating when one considers that it only exists because Meyer was too fucking lazy to think of another way for Alice to mistake Bella for dead, therefore leading to Edward's sparklecide.
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J.Day
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Post by J.Day on Dec 9, 2010 19:37:04 GMT -8
^ You bring up some very good points. Also, didn't Jacob refer to himself as "human" when he was telling Bella in Eclipse to choose him over Edward? According to the mythos that Meyer herself created, the Meyerwolves are actually humans who happen to have some kind of werewolf gene that gets turned on whenever vampires are near La Push so that the wolves can defend and protect the Quileutes. So, theoretically, since Alice was once human, then her power should be applicable to the Meyerwolves.
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Post by Lady Phoenix on Dec 9, 2010 19:42:37 GMT -8
Twihards often bring up weak excuses defending the Twilight series.
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Post by Lovely Kiss on Dec 9, 2010 23:34:59 GMT -8
I don't know if anyone has mentioned it yet, But what about the plot hole of vampire powers being based off an ability they had as humans? And yet Benjamin is like Avatar: The Last Airbender with his element manipulation. How the hell did he get that power? And what about that other vampires power to do electrical currents? I can kind of get Chelsea's, maybe she had the ability to sever ties with people through manipulation and lies, and that just enhanced, but the other abilities make no sense.
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Post by Elentari on Dec 10, 2010 4:31:41 GMT -8
About Alice's visions: And she was also able to see Bella's future because she doesn't see the reasons behind decisions, she sees only the outcomes which are outside the mind. If she can see Bella, the great private mind, why doesn't she see the shifters then, too? They make a lot of decisions also. Essentially the shifters are still humans (they think and act like humans and have a mindset of one), even if they change into wolves from time to time.
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Post by Blue Suede Shoes on Dec 13, 2010 0:41:35 GMT -8
Another car-related very minor plot hole: in Book One the author makes a point of demonstrating to us that Bella's truck is silent when Alice drives it home, so Bella is surprised when it just shows up in the driveway.
But... um... how would that work?
Bella's truck is loud because the engine is noisy, not because of anything specific Bella does while driving it. Why would the engine make a different sound simply because Alice is behind the wheel? It's still the same engine, and driving is just driving unless you're really abusing your car, which Bella doesn't seem to. It would make sense if Alice had done something to repair it so it ran more smoothly, but since it's just as loud next time Bella drives it, that doesn't seem to be the case.
How does the truck know that a vampire is driving it so it must now run quietly? It's a purely mechanical issue unrelated to the driver. It's irrelevant that Alice herself can move more quietly than Bella can; if they're driving the same vehicle, the purely vehicle-related noise should be the same.
I'm starting to wonder if Meyer doesn't drive much, or at the very least doesn't maintain her own car. She seems more confused about the basics of vehicles than I would expect an American adult with a license to be.
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Tim Willard
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Post by Tim Willard on Dec 13, 2010 7:49:49 GMT -8
Another car-related very minor plot hole: in Book One the author makes a point of demonstrating to us that Bella's truck is silent when Alice drives it home, so Bella is surprised when it just shows up in the driveway. But... um... how would that work? Bella's truck is loud because the engine is noisy, not because of anything specific Bella does while driving it. Why would the engine make a different sound simply because Alice is behind the wheel? It's still the same engine, and driving is just driving unless you're really abusing your car, which Bella doesn't seem to. It would make sense if Alice had done something to repair it so it ran more smoothly, but since it's just as loud next time Bella drives it, that doesn't seem to be the case. How does the truck know that a vampire is driving it so it must now run quietly? It's a purely mechanical issue unrelated to the driver. It's irrelevant that Alice herself can move more quietly than Bella can; if they're driving the same vehicle, the purely vehicle-related noise should be the same. I'm starting to wonder if Meyer doesn't drive much, or at the very least doesn't maintain her own car. She seems more confused about the basics of vehicles than I would expect an American adult with a license to be.
Maybe Alice drove it like Fred Flintstone?
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Post by vampirekites on Dec 13, 2010 8:31:09 GMT -8
Or maybe she carried it home. They are like, so super fast and super strong, that it's like carrying a piece of paper!
No, it's just Smeyer showing us how special vampires are and ignoring everything about the real world. She bends (or sometimes breaks) the rules of disbelief in order for her to go extravagant on her vampires. I sort of think it's not exactly stupidity, but more of schoolyard type of showing off. "Nah nah, my vampires are better than yours! nah nah!".
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limelightqueen
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Post by limelightqueen on Dec 13, 2010 20:29:52 GMT -8
I didn't see this mentioned yet but in Eclipse we are told that Rosalie's family wasn't affected by the great depression because her father was a banker. Proving that Smeyer sucks at history as well as biology, physics, grammar and basic geography.
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Post by Elentari on Dec 14, 2010 4:29:58 GMT -8
I didn't see this mentioned yet but in Eclipse we are told that Rosalie's family wasn't affected by the great depression because her father was a banker. Proving that Smeyer sucks at history as well as biology, physics, grammar and basic geography. Yeah, and what about her claiming that Alice would have been burned as a witch had she been born about 100 years earlier (meaning, during the effing 19th century)? I think she also said that Alice was given electric shocks during her time in the asylum, although they weren't even used when she was institutionalized.
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