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Post by marienomad on Feb 22, 2014 8:28:16 GMT -8
I am just thinking. How evil are the Volturi? I know that they eat humans. They don't mind eating humans. But they do control themselves and are mostly honest about their nature.
They felt that humans are dangerous and that they would destroy the vampires if they know about their existence. That is why the Volturi keep a strict no human must know policy. If the Volturi were to die, then there would be chaos among the vampires.
But I am curious about the evils of the Volturi.
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Post by arcanius on Feb 22, 2014 8:46:08 GMT -8
Generaly speaking, except eating humans.... I don't find them that evil. They definately got the cullens beat in "goodness" atleast.
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Post by annoyed on Feb 22, 2014 15:18:12 GMT -8
It's a sure sign of bad writing when your villains unintentionally come off as more sympathetic than the protagonists.
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Post by Chaotic Neutral on Feb 22, 2014 15:37:44 GMT -8
They eat people. I find that pretty damn evil.
But yes, that's really the only thing the Cullens have on them. Otherwise, their concerns and "laws" seem pretty legitimate. Heck, BD seems more like a matter of the Cullens wanting to flout the rules and the Volturri trying to uphold said rules than any battle between good and evil.
Hell, the entire thing was a misunderstanding! One that no one has yet been able to convince me COULDN'T have been solved by a simple phone call! So the Volturri was "looking for an excuse" to punish the Cullens? I say not immediately turning Bella was a good one. Or if they only needed an excuse, questioning their authority and FLAUNTING their disregard for the rules supposed to protect them in front of all those "witnesses" should have in and of itself been a damned good one.
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Post by arcanius on Feb 22, 2014 18:11:00 GMT -8
^ The only thing I feel sorry for is that there was no slaughter of Cullens and Volturi. Not that meyers would have ever made that. But I like to think there was(Then again I also want to think there is no twilight at all). How did that saying go "You can never have too many enemies(In that case enemies of mankind), the more you have, the more likely they'll get in each other's way."
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malva
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Post by malva on Feb 23, 2014 9:33:24 GMT -8
If allignments made sense in real life where there is no definite good or evil, they could be lawful neutral or -evil. Eating people is their nature, as it is with animal predators, but they're far advanced enough to make a decision to fight it for moral reasons and drink animal blood. They only control themselves for self preservation, there is nothing moral about this. The Cullen's vegetarianism analogy sucks, but to a vampire, this might be as "evil" as it is for us to eat meat. Their general amorality and zero effort to keep their victims alive as they COULD does make them evil in my opinion.
They aren't even all that lawful if they leave Victoria alone for no better reason. There's nothing honestly good about them, even if they seem harmless compared to other vampires we're used to.
For the Cullen's case. They make efforts here and there and HAVE morals, they are just utter hippocrites and morons blind to their countless mistakes. F+ for occassional good intentions and naivity, which is more than you can say about the Volturi and their bodycount. They're just more faceted bad and have way more pages to piss us off.
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Post by arcanius on Feb 23, 2014 10:34:09 GMT -8
^ And that not a legitimate "Evilness" reason?
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malva
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Post by malva on Feb 23, 2014 13:36:50 GMT -8
^ And that not a legitimate "Evilness" reason? Never said it's not. The Volturi are being vampires. The Cullens are being dishonest, self-righteous, careless, clueless, selfish douchebags. Painless early death vs. life long mental torture. What's worse? VolturiTravels has a strict no return policy. The Cullens you can just move away from. For their intentions, the Cullens at least (poorly) try to live by (basic) morals (whenever it doesn't inconvenience them). You can't fail if you never try, which means the Cullens have tried harder than anyone before. |
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Post by Chaotic Neutral on Feb 23, 2014 16:59:32 GMT -8
^It's not necessarily that easily. We can't just move away from the Cullens. For one, they travel often. For another, moving implies that you know about them, and the rules say knowing about them gets you eaten.
The problem overall isn't simply that the Cullens are hypocritical jerkasses. The problem is that they're STUPID. They want to claim moral superiority on basis of not killing people, fine. But they don't just claim to be more moral and otherwise leave humans alone. They are actively putting themselves out there among humans, to be found out by humans, and to ultimately put humans in needless danger. Edward's "suicide plan" in New Moon? To sparkle in sunlight in front of a crowd of witnesses and force the Volturi to kill him for exposing himself. The less noted issue with exposing himself to a huge crowd of people is that doing so would also result in the unwarranted murder of every single person who just happened to be present to witness his sparkling. This is keeping in mind that at any normal time, this would have him seen by at least a good several dozen people on a slow day (and this is me being lax on the number), and Mr. Pointless Dramatics was going to do this in the middle of a festival.
Hell, the whole reason the so called "war" in Eclipse even happened in the first place was because of Bella and the Cullens. Did Meyer ever give us a number as to how many people DIED because of that vampire army? I know an entire cruise ship was taken out, and THAT should certainly be a pretty big red flag on the human's radar. Then the whole mess with James--for all that they didn't give a crap about him eating people, they made a pretty big deal out of him wanting to eat Bella. Practically EVERY problem in the whole of the series could have been solved right then and there if James had just eaten her. They certainly would have garnered less attention if they hadn't kidnapped the twit and taken her across the country to avoid a guy who ENDED UP FINDING HER ANYWAY.
If the Cullens REALLY gave a damn about people and not causing needless deaths, they could just as easily move to the mountains and start their own monastery and spared everyone the trouble.
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Post by arcanius on Feb 24, 2014 6:27:40 GMT -8
^ Basicaly this. You're awesome at summing stuff up
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malva
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Post by malva on Feb 24, 2014 16:13:17 GMT -8
Edward's "suicide plan" in New Moon? To sparkle in sunlight in front of a crowd of witnesses and force the Volturi to kill him for exposing himself. The less noted issue with exposing himself to a huge crowd of people is that doing so would also result in the unwarranted murder of every single person who just happened to be present to witness his sparkling. This is keeping in mind that at any normal time, this would have him seen by at least a good several dozen people on a slow day (and this is me being lax on the number), and Mr. Pointless Dramatics was going to do this in the middle of a festival. This must be the 50th time someone brings up a huge problem with the series I haven't even thought of. Is there an end to this? You got me convinced. Didn't know about the cruise ship either (didn't read the Bree Tanner book). Jesus, these guys weren't subtle. And it were just twenty for some reason. Half the police force of the country must have been on their asses before, after this it was probably the military and several agencies. It couldn't have been "gang violence", but it could be terrorists. They don't know, but they would assume and investigate all the more. How did all these investigators not find anything on frenzying, clueless newborn vampires going GTA for all this time? More importantly, why the f did the Volturi not worry about this? In today's day and age, where everyone carries an HD camera in their pocket and can spread any video proof across the world in minutes. How did they plan on containing proof of vampires from spreading? Does one of them have vampire-internet-hacking-powers? Do the Volturi even have DSL? If they let newborns rage like this after they got nationwide attention, why do they even exist? Dangerous stupidity is not the Cullen's problem alone. |
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Post by Lady of Himring on Feb 25, 2014 21:04:04 GMT -8
Edward's "suicide plan" in New Moon? To sparkle in sunlight in front of a crowd of witnesses and force the Volturi to kill him for exposing himself. The less noted issue with exposing himself to a huge crowd of people is that doing so would also result in the unwarranted murder of every single person who just happened to be present to witness his sparkling. This is keeping in mind that at any normal time, this would have him seen by at least a good several dozen people on a slow day (and this is me being lax on the number), and Mr. Pointless Dramatics was going to do this in the middle of a festival. This must be the 50th time someone brings up a huge problem with the series I haven't even thought of. Is there an end to this? You got me convinced. Didn't know about the cruise ship either (didn't read the Bree Tanner book). Jesus, these guys weren't subtle. And it were just twenty for some reason. Half the police force of the country must have been on their asses before, after this it was probably the military and several agencies. It couldn't have been "gang violence", but it could be terrorists. They don't know, but they would assume and investigate all the more. How did all these investigators not find anything on frenzying, clueless newborn vampires going GTA for all this time? More importantly, why the f did the Volturi not worry about this? In today's day and age, where everyone carries an HD camera in their pocket and can spread any video proof across the world in minutes. How did they plan on containing proof of vampires from spreading? Does one of them have vampire-internet-hacking-powers? Do the Volturi even have DSL? If they let newborns rage like this after they got nationwide attention, why do they even exist? Dangerous stupidity is not the Cullen's problem alone.
Add that once upon a time, Edward was going on a vigilante rampage and he's seriously consider at some point killing people just for daring to thinking thoughts he dislikes!
And while yes, the Volturi are evil in the basic sense (killing people), at least they have the decency (I know, I know) of doing in so under cover (luring people into closed spaces, no witnesses). At least I'm willing to give the Volturi a pass in the sense that they own up their shit. They're not trying to pretend something and being the opposite, remind me again what happens to all the clothes the Cullen buy? Shelters? No, trash. All the food they buy? Trash. I can't recall at the moment who said this quote, but it sums up my thoughts on the matter: "I'd rather have quiet vice to ostentacious virtue". |
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Post by Chaotic Neutral on Feb 26, 2014 2:11:32 GMT -8
This must be the 50th time someone brings up a huge problem with the series I haven't even thought of. Is there an end to this? You got me convinced. Didn't know about the cruise ship either (didn't read the Bree Tanner book). Jesus, these guys weren't subtle. And it were just twenty for some reason. Half the police force of the country must have been on their asses before, after this it was probably the military and several agencies. It couldn't have been "gang violence", but it could be terrorists. They don't know, but they would assume and investigate all the more. How did all these investigators not find anything on frenzying, clueless newborn vampires going GTA for all this time? More importantly, why the f did the Volturi not worry about this? In today's day and age, where everyone carries an HD camera in their pocket and can spread any video proof across the world in minutes. How did they plan on containing proof of vampires from spreading? Does one of them have vampire-internet-hacking-powers? Do the Volturi even have DSL? If they let newborns rage like this after they got nationwide attention, why do they even exist? Dangerous stupidity is not the Cullen's problem alone.
Add that once upon a time, Edward was going on a vigilante rampage and he's seriously consider at some point killing people just for daring to thinking thoughts he dislikes!
And while yes, the Volturi are evil in the basic sense (killing people), at least they have the decency (I know, I know) of doing in so under cover (luring people into closed spaces, no witnesses). At least I'm willing to give the Volturi a pass in the sense that they own up their shit. They're not trying to pretend something and being the opposite, remind me again what happens to all the clothes the Cullen buy? Shelters? No, trash. All the food they buy? Trash. I can't recall at the moment who said this quote, but it sums up my thoughts on the matter: "I'd rather have quiet vice to ostentacious virtue".In addition, as noted in a previous thread, there was only one thing that stopped Edward from following through on his desire to slaughter everyone in the classroom. No, it wasn't curiosity about Bella, or that killing people is wrong, or even that murdering everyone there would raise a gigantic red flag about the Cullens and ruin their whole "pretending to be human" gimmick. The one thing that stopped Edward from murdering a classroom full of innocent people? The concern that by the time he managed to kill everyone, Bella's blood may already have gone cold. Volturi are asses, I do not deny, but THIS? This is sheer stupidity. Not to mention completely hypocritical of Edward in terms of just about every "moral" characteristic he's supposed to have, ESPECIALLY since at NO point do we see him show that those thoughts were a BAD THING. Yeah, sure, let's assume Carlisle will forgive him for going against his morals, killing innocent people, AND REVEALING THEIR SECRET TO AN ENTIRE TOWN. Carlisle is going to be the LEAST of his problems in that case. Also noted in this other thread was the issue that choosing not to donate their designer clothes does not make the Cullens not good people. Plenty of good, honest people don't necessarily donate their clothes to charities or whatnot. Not everybody has to do it and the Cullens should not be bashed on for what they decide to do with their clothes--even if it means they only wear things once before trashing them and add to the whole pollution and garbage issue that is already plaguing the humanity they're supposed to be so much better than. That does not make the Cullens bad people. Wasteful, but not bad. The problem comes, however, in the methods in which they obtained the money to waste on these items in the first place. Partly by Carlisle forging documents to claim a reputation he should not conceivably have, but in particular due to Alice's insider trading which, by the laws that the Cullens are SUPPOSED to live by, is ILLEGAL and considered to be THEFT. So not only are they wasting money on clothes they don't need and won't even really use outside of the one time just to show how damned rich they are, they are wasting STOLEN MONEY to do so without giving anything back. Even ignoring the laws about insider trading, we still have Alice abusing her power to make a profit. In what way is that different from the Volturi? Also, practically everything about the Cullens screams "notice me!" Carlisle is a doctor apparently already set with a big reputation for being awesome. Alice plays the stock market and apparently always makes a profit and no loss. The kids skip school whenever it's "too sunny". They have a huge house. Wear designer clothes. Drive fancy cars that they tend to race down country roads at 100mph. Were throwing around $1000 bills like they actually exist at one point to bribe an officer from a foreign country who shouldn't accept US cash anyway. Break into people's houses to watch them sleep and add or remove clothes or belongings. Steal equipment from the hospital as though nobody would notice any of it missing. Super pretty. Super rich. Act cold and aloof and overall simply don't even try to fit in with the populous. And they are residing in a SMALL TOWN. The sort of small town where "everybody knows everybody", the people AREN'T super rich, and people are just generally likely to notice "there's something weird about those kids". Adding on top of all of that is the blatant issue that there just happens to be a certain tribe nearby that WILL fursplode into killer wolves when the Cullens are in town. And they choose to come ANYWAY despite knowing this will happen and likely attract even MORE attention when there are reports of wolves in an area that SHOULD NOT HAVE WOLVES. In what way is ANY of this conducive to keeping their secret...well....SECRET? They are stupid. Unbelievably stupid. Their stupidity is only outmatched by Bella's own for all the problems they cause. So as far as the question of are the Volturi evil? Well, that's relative. They eat people. They show no remorse. They've lied and murdered and manipulated and all that stuff that evil people tend to do. In the eyes of the Cullens, yes, the Volturi are evil. From an outsider perspective, however, they are simply enforcing rules to keep the humans unaware so a major war doesn't break out. Which, outside of the reason of wanting to be free to eat people as they please, is actually a good idea in terms of preventing the consequences of humanity finding out there are unnatural superpowered freaks of nature hanging around that could (and DO) easily kill them. So yes, outside the basic reason of readers wanting the Volturi to off the Cullens and Bella for just being THAT annoying, the Volturi actually would have a legitimate reason to kill the lot of them if only for the sake of preventing the revelation of the existence of the supernatural world. Which the Cullens have both unknowingly AND knowingly risked and outright allowed. The fact that they're breaking the perceived rules in place to keep the "peace" between humans and what they don't know about, FLAUNTING that rule breaking to the Volturi, and flat out encouraging other people to not listen to the Volturi about those rules makes it less of a situation where the Volturi is evil and more that the Cullens are brats who just want to get their way--consequences and common sense be damned. And I wouldn't mind it, actually. I wouldn't mind any of it if Meyer didn't write with the mentality of a two year old and would actually allow the natural consequences of their stupidity and selfish actions to follow through instead of putting the lot of them on a pedestal saying they're right, everyone else in the world is wrong and unworthy of concern, so there! |
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Post by Lady of Himring on Mar 1, 2014 20:39:50 GMT -8
^To say that I agree with you would be an understatement. The Volturi seem evil for the Cullen fans (admitedly, I find the human eating wrong, but understanable), because ever since book one, the Cullens are presented as good and well intended. After all, why else would Bella (the ultimate self insert) want so desperately to join?
We're presented with this family of good people, with Rosalie being the 'bitch' on the circle. And later we're presented the Volturi in a very specific circumstance that makes the casual reader root for the Cullens. But once you really sit down and think about it, other than human eating... what makes the Volturi so bad?
Carlisle himself spent time with them, he above anyone else should know or at least understand why the need of rules. But no, we have a blatant disregard for rules on the Cullen side and the encouragement to not follow the rules, because why?
I mentioned the clothes and food thing because they are the ones prancing around being all self important and with a holier-than-thou attitude and yet they fail on the mere basic of human decency. They completely snub all the people around them and the wasteful attitudes don't help at all.
On the Alice thing, I agree and I've mentioned something related on the anti Alice thread that now that I think about it, I will expand some more.
And by the way, you've inspired me for a thread on the Cullens
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Post by Jean-Thomas Renault on Mar 2, 2014 8:09:35 GMT -8
Are the Volturi evil? I believe so. At a first pass, we might use Kant to help make the case. Kant says that all rational beings are bound by morality. This implies that any (hypothetical) nonhuman rational beings are subject to the same moral duties, since their possession of reason would bind them as it does humans. Granting this for the moment, we can imagine beings which might fall into this category, such as space aliens and, for our purposes, vampires. Now what do we know about the Volturi? Among other things, they are murderers. There is certainty more for which they can be subject to moral blame, but this one is simple enough and (hopefully) uncontroversial enough to serve as any example. If we grant that the Volturi are murderers, it is difficult to see how might get out of saying that they are immoral, and therefore, bad. But this is just a first pass.
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